Comments, Criticism and Farewell

Obiwaren · 19 Nov 2002, 05:30 PM

With the greatest regrets I wish to bid farewell to the Emailaddresses forum. I’ve been registered here for about a year but have been here about two years. I have met many kind and helpful people here and have learned about some great services.

The reason I started coming here:
After switching ISP’s a few years ago I decided to use an email service separate from my ISP so I chose AltaVista. While AltaVista webmail worked just fine, I missed using Outlook Express to simply download my mail, which I could read any time. I found Yahoo! Mail and was completely satisfied but I was then interested in knowing what free services were available and trying them out. (just for fun) I started amassing a list and checked them frequently for dependability and enjoyed exchanging information at the Emailaddresses forum. I also liked to know what kinds of experiences others were having and looked forward to trying something new.

Criticism

I have been very disappointed with the forum lately for a couple of reasons:

1. Unfriendliness – This used to be a place to talk about FREE email but now the mere mention of a free service seems to be ridiculed. IMAP is being pushed as the ONLY mail protocol worthy of mention (even though is it suitable mainly for high-speed internet and business). Only about 10% of those connected to the Internet have high-speed. New services (both paid and free) are getting the cold shoulder and even being removed from discussion without any explanations (like the one mentioned in the About.com article). Forums get closed like a slammed door even while there is no profanity, abusiveness or spamming taking place. Criticism (except against Yahoo! and Hotmail) aren’t welcomed.

2. Fastmail Fanaticism - Fastmail is a very good email company, no doubt about it. But Fastmail is being far too heavily promoted here. It’s almost impossible to find a thread without someone screaming “FASTMAIL”! There are email companies out there who have excellent services that are more suitable for the typical home user, but they get mobbed by fans of Fastmail. Emailaddresses has become a running commercial for Fastmail.

Kudos
My many thanks go to Jeremy, Liz, Munchkin and others who have helped me out and provided some assistance when asked for… thanks! Thanks also to those of you who keep the faith and still manage to find those email gems.

Sincerely,

Obiwaren

P.S. This isn’t an “I’m taking my ball and going home speech”. I will return from time to time to see if anything is new and if I find a new great service that is free, I’ll pass it on to you… if I’m allowed.

Jeremy Howard · 19 Nov 2002, 05:46 PM

I'm sorry to hear that you're not happy--I do hope we'll see you back around the place again!...

I would like to take issue with your comment regarding IMAP. IMAP is a far more efficient protocol than POP (although not all email clients use all of its efficiency features). When Rob was in the US he used it at 9600bps (5 times slower than normal modems). For slow connections it is actually much more appropriate than POP.

IMAP in fact is a strict superset of POP. There is no POP feature not supported by IMAP. Unfortunately, IMAP sometimes gets a bad name because some software companies have failed to support it adequately.

Because of the problem of software support, POP is best for some people who are tied to particular email software for some reason, such as for people with many rules defined in their email client, or who need some feature not available in software with solid IMAP support. Also, most POP software downloads off the server and removes the message, whereas most IMAP software does not provide this feature (although the IMAP protocol does support that, and some software does it), so for people who don't want to pay for server storage POP can be preferable.

I have found that very new users find IMAP more intuitive, because they do not have the confusion about "downloading email", and it suddenly "disappearing" when they log in to the web. For instance, when FastMail.FM switched to IMAP from POP, we had far less support issues of this type to deal with (we used to get many every day).

kaptitsky · 19 Nov 2002, 06:09 PM

Just to note, IMAP is not technically a "strict superset" of POP3 - the IMAP spec was written by someone who never saw POP3, so some things in IMAP are approached in a very different way, even though it includes all the functionality.

And the slow model you give is on an always-connected device with little local storage, a cellular phone, rather than on a sometimes connected device with plenty of local storage, a PC. The outcome of discussions here have come to the stunning conclusion that the best IMAP client for dial-up users is still Outlook Express, which treats an IMAP server like am NNTP Usenet server.

Will the ultimate IMAP client be written that takes advantage of all features for everyone? Someday, but it doesn't exist yet. And it probably won't be Mulberry, unless it changes shape dramatically and becomes more user oriented and more effective with local storage.

IMAP, in it's basic implementation, is a protocol that requires you to trust your mail supplier's server rather than your own hard disk. It's access to a remote mail store, rather than a forward & store protocol. Me? I like a nice local mail store that I can back up and have, and while you can do that with IMAP by copying to local folders, its simpler with POP3 where you just manage things locally.

IMAP is good, yes. But there is a reason it hasn't set the world on fire yet.

If it had, there would be much better clients for it.

***Edwin*** · 19 Nov 2002, 06:10 PM

For clarification, there are currently 4 - and only 4 - services out of the thousands of email services out there that are not allowed to be discussed on EmailDiscussions.com.

There are good historical reasons that justified each of the 4 bans.

The perceived censorship problem may be because at least 1 (and possibly 2) of the banned services have very strong and vocal supporters, who really don't seem to take "NO" for an answer. It's not that the moderators (under my guidance) and I are constantly seeking to censor discussion, but rather that the same few "undiscussable" services keep on being brought up again and again in discussions... therefore requiring threads to be modified or locked.

I believe if you take the issues covered by the above out of the picture, that the vast, overwhelming majority of discussions take place unhindered (except when intervention is required because of bad language, political discussions, flaming, links to adult material and other issues that contravene the Forum Rules)

Jeremy Howard · 19 Nov 2002, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaptitsky
Just to note, IMAP is not technically a "strict superset" of POP3

It is. There is no feature of POP not supported by IMAP.

Quote:

And the slow model you give is on an always-connected device with little local storage, a cellular phone

No, the mobile phone was GSM, and was connected to a PC. It was not always connected, but a standard dial up connection.[quote]

Quote:

IMAP, in it's basic implementation, is a protocol that requires you to trust your mail supplier's server rather than your own hard disk. It's access to a remote mail store, rather than a forward & store protocol.

No, that is just one particular way to use it. In fact, our suggestion is to use it in synchronization mode, where it is stored on both your PC and the server, and if lost on either you have a backup.

It can be used in store and forward mode too. There is nothing fundamentally in the protocol that encourages one mode over the other.

Quote:

IMAP is good, yes. But there is a reason it hasn't set the world on fire yet.

Yes, the reason is that it is difficult for server providers to support its rich functionality and heavier resource requirements.

Jeremy Howard · 19 Nov 2002, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaptitsky
The outcome of discussions here have come to the stunning conclusion that the best IMAP client for dial-up users is still Outlook Express, which treats an IMAP server like am NNTP Usenet server.

I should also add that there is very little similarity to Outlook Express' use of IMAP to its use of NNTP. It has fairly complete support of synchronization of IMAP, including allowing full manipulation of IMAP folders while not connected to the server. NNTP does not support such concepts at all.

A simple way to see this is to try logging on to your NNTP server from a different computer. Note that all of your posts appear as unread, and your details about which newsgroups you want to subscribe to are forgotten.

Outlook Express with IMAP however syncs both of these with the server and shows them correctly regardless of where you access from. This is, of course, just the tip of the iceberg, but it is a useful comparison since NNTP and IMAP have an overlap in functionality here.

george · 22 Nov 2002, 02:57 AM

If Outlook Express is the best IMAP client for dial up users, can anyone give me the low-down on the best IMAP client for T1 users? I'd prefer a free client, if possible, but might be willing to consider Mulberry if it's really head and shoulders above the rest.

btw, I'm a Mac user, if that matters.

Thanks!

**ReuvenNY** · 22 Nov 2002, 05:40 AM

Obiwaren, you seem to be very pleasant and reasonable person. It is a pity that you are “leaving”, as people with your spirit and attitude make it a more pleasant forum to be on.

And perhaps this forum is not for you. As a free email service proponent, you may feel outnumbered by those that prefer paid services. Those members, many of whom have a fastmail account, are also very vocal. Typically people that pay for service that is also available for free, are more “committed”, “enthusiastic”, and let’s face it - fanatic about email in general. (I am one of them). By their sheer numbers, they create a certain spirit on the forum. An I believe that was what alienated you. In other words, I can see your frustration.

Having said that, I believe that there is enough room and interest among the members, who do discuss free services. The proportions of “free” vs “paid” discussion might have changed, but that’s only because of the major increase on the fastmail forum. The “free” part is still there, with a lot of people participating.

Personally, the more treads I read, the more I learn. Some may not be of immediate interest to me, but you never know...

Think about it.

Adam Lachlan · 23 Nov 2002, 09:27 PM

It's a shame when something like this happens. but it's happened before:

http://emailaddresses.com/forum/show...&threadid=5998

denverharless · 23 Nov 2002, 11:35 PM

obiwaren, fare thee well! Best wishes to you, sincerely!
I have thought about putting a stop to my own reading of these forums, but for very different reasons. My main reason is that I seem to be addicted to this site. I learn so much, but I spend too much time here. Likewise, I think I spend too much time planning the perfect email alias/forwarding scenario to ward off spam, etc. No one I know cares so much.

But when I do leave it will have nothing to do with the spirit on the boards. I paid very close attention when one of the services were banned last summer (the one you mentioned, obiwaren). Believe me, it was for a very, very good reason!

As for the Fastmail bias, well it is undeniable. I joined the forum looking for a free service as well, and at first I was intrigued by the constant referrences to Fastmail and Runbox (I didn't realize that each had their user forums supported on this site). Anyway, when I read Jeremy's posts, I realized that the praise they were receiving was justified. I decided to give them a whirl myself, and have never looked back. You are right, though, that there aren't many advocates for other services on these boards. But, that may just be a function of the times. If Hotmail or Yahoo jerks their customers around again, we are bound to see another influx of readers here. Anyway, when you comparison shop for free services, it's hard not to become a Fastmail advocate. Most places skimp on some feature, but not FM.

So, my days of reading these forums may be shortening too. But, I am glad I came around here. Take care, obiwaren!

16 Aug 2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by harless
obiwaren, fare thee well! Best wishes to you, sincerely!
I have thought about putting a stop to my own reading of these forums, but for very different reasons. My main reason is that I seem to be addicted to this site. I learn so much, but I spend too much time here. Likewise, I think I spend too much time planning the perfect email alias/forwarding scenario to ward off spam, etc. No one I know cares so much.

I spend waaaay too much time on this forum, its kinda scary. I think I must just like the sound of my own voice

Dan.

fastashell · 16 Aug 2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MAILfreak
It's a shame when something like this happens. but it's happened before:

http://emailaddresses.com/forum/show...&threadid=5998

People leave things for all sorts of reasons. Many people dislike change and when things don't stay the same comfortable way they become disatisfied and look alsewhere for whatever they want. (I'm not saying this applies in the quoted example, but it's possible.).

It applies in discussions groups just as anywhere else in life. For instance, the sport I've been involved in for many years is changing in ways that I don't much like hence my involvement in it is decreasing. This doesn't mean that the changes are wrong, or there shouldn't be any changes, just that I'm not comfortable with them.

The same with this forum, new people will come, some of the old ones will go. Things will change. It can be sad to see and old face disappear but, such is life, things change and you either embrace the changes or move on.

**CyberSmurf** · 16 Aug 2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormcrow
I spend waaaay too much time on this forum, its kinda scary. I think I must just like the sound of my own voice

. . . .

LOL

You managed to dig up another old thread.

At the time this thread was originally posted, I was somewhat sympathetic towards Obiwaren regarding "Fastmail Fanaticism". But one reason there are so many Fastmail.fm fans here is largely due to the commitment that Jeremy Howard has shown.
The service is still popular and Free accounts are still available.

16 Aug 2003, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CyberSmurf
LOL

You managed to dig up another old thread.

Its not that old

There was a simular thread that was much much older. I wasn't game to open it

Dan.

Spin · 17 Aug 2003, 01:00 AM

Sorry to hear that you are leaving obiwaren

About fastmail being posted all over the place or every post screaming fastmail I have to disagree. If the post is whats your favorite email provider, or your top 3 favorite email providers fastmail will turn up ALOT. But that is because its such a great email service. And it does have free accounts. I checked out fastmail and I really like it. But I use mailsnare, and check out other providers that other people mention that are free.. (stormcrow)

, Sorry your leaving and hope you come back to check up on everything.

___________
Spin

19 Nov 2002, 05:30 PM	#1
Obiwaren Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 67	Comments, Criticism and Farewell With the greatest regrets I wish to bid farewell to the Emailaddresses forum. I’ve been registered here for about a year but have been here about two years. I have met many kind and helpful people here and have learned about some great services. The reason I started coming here: After switching ISP’s a few years ago I decided to use an email service separate from my ISP so I chose AltaVista. While AltaVista webmail worked just fine, I missed using Outlook Express to simply download my mail, which I could read any time. I found Yahoo! Mail and was completely satisfied but I was then interested in knowing what free services were available and trying them out. (just for fun) I started amassing a list and checked them frequently for dependability and enjoyed exchanging information at the Emailaddresses forum. I also liked to know what kinds of experiences others were having and looked forward to trying something new. Criticism I have been very disappointed with the forum lately for a couple of reasons: 1. Unfriendliness – This used to be a place to talk about FREE email but now the mere mention of a free service seems to be ridiculed. IMAP is being pushed as the ONLY mail protocol worthy of mention (even though is it suitable mainly for high-speed internet and business). Only about 10% of those connected to the Internet have high-speed. New services (both paid and free) are getting the cold shoulder and even being removed from discussion without any explanations (like the one mentioned in the About.com article). Forums get closed like a slammed door even while there is no profanity, abusiveness or spamming taking place. Criticism (except against Yahoo! and Hotmail) aren’t welcomed. 2. Fastmail Fanaticism - Fastmail is a very good email company, no doubt about it. But Fastmail is being far too heavily promoted here. It’s almost impossible to find a thread without someone screaming “FASTMAIL”! There are email companies out there who have excellent services that are more suitable for the typical home user, but they get mobbed by fans of Fastmail. Emailaddresses has become a running commercial for Fastmail. Kudos My many thanks go to Jeremy, Liz, Munchkin and others who have helped me out and provided some assistance when asked for… thanks! Thanks also to those of you who keep the faith and still manage to find those email gems. Sincerely, Obiwaren P.S. This isn’t an “I’m taking my ball and going home speech”. I will return from time to time to see if anything is new and if I find a new great service that is free, I’ll pass it on to you… if I’m allowed.

19 Nov 2002, 05:46 PM	#2
Jeremy Howard Ultimate Contributor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 11,501	I'm sorry to hear that you're not happy--I do hope we'll see you back around the place again!... I would like to take issue with your comment regarding IMAP. IMAP is a far more efficient protocol than POP (although not all email clients use all of its efficiency features). When Rob was in the US he used it at 9600bps (5 times slower than normal modems). For slow connections it is actually much more appropriate than POP. IMAP in fact is a strict superset of POP. There is no POP feature not supported by IMAP. Unfortunately, IMAP sometimes gets a bad name because some software companies have failed to support it adequately. Because of the problem of software support, POP is best for some people who are tied to particular email software for some reason, such as for people with many rules defined in their email client, or who need some feature not available in software with solid IMAP support. Also, most POP software downloads off the server and removes the message, whereas most IMAP software does not provide this feature (although the IMAP protocol does support that, and some software does it), so for people who don't want to pay for server storage POP can be preferable. I have found that very new users find IMAP more intuitive, because they do not have the confusion about "downloading email", and it suddenly "disappearing" when they log in to the web. For instance, when FastMail.FM switched to IMAP from POP, we had far less support issues of this type to deal with (we used to get many every day).

19 Nov 2002, 06:09 PM	#3
kaptitsky The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,186	Just to note, IMAP is not technically a "strict superset" of POP3 - the IMAP spec was written by someone who never saw POP3, so some things in IMAP are approached in a very different way, even though it includes all the functionality. And the slow model you give is on an always-connected device with little local storage, a cellular phone, rather than on a sometimes connected device with plenty of local storage, a PC. The outcome of discussions here have come to the stunning conclusion that the best IMAP client for dial-up users is still Outlook Express, which treats an IMAP server like am NNTP Usenet server. Will the ultimate IMAP client be written that takes advantage of all features for everyone? Someday, but it doesn't exist yet. And it probably won't be Mulberry, unless it changes shape dramatically and becomes more user oriented and more effective with local storage. IMAP, in it's basic implementation, is a protocol that requires you to trust your mail supplier's server rather than your own hard disk. It's access to a remote mail store, rather than a forward & store protocol. Me? I like a nice local mail store that I can back up and have, and while you can do that with IMAP by copying to local folders, its simpler with POP3 where you just manage things locally. IMAP is good, yes. But there is a reason it hasn't set the world on fire yet. If it had, there would be much better clients for it.

19 Nov 2002, 06:10 PM	#4
*Edwin* Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: UK Posts: 3,118	For clarification, there are currently 4 - and only 4 - services out of the thousands of email services out there that are not allowed to be discussed on EmailDiscussions.com. There are good historical reasons that justified each of the 4 bans. The perceived censorship problem may be because at least 1 (and possibly 2) of the banned services have very strong and vocal supporters, who really don't seem to take "NO" for an answer. It's not that the moderators (under my guidance) and I are constantly seeking to censor discussion, but rather that the same few "undiscussable" services keep on being brought up again and again in discussions... therefore requiring threads to be modified or locked. I believe if you take the issues covered by the above out of the picture, that the vast, overwhelming majority of discussions take place unhindered (except when intervention is required because of bad language, political discussions, flaming, links to adult material and other issues that contravene the Forum Rules)

22 Nov 2002, 02:57 AM	#7
george Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 59	If Outlook Express is the best IMAP client for dial up users, can anyone give me the low-down on the best IMAP client for T1 users? I'd prefer a free client, if possible, but might be willing to consider Mulberry if it's really head and shoulders above the rest. btw, I'm a Mac user, if that matters. Thanks!

22 Nov 2002, 05:40 AM	#8
ReuvenNY Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 4,259	Obiwaren, you seem to be very pleasant and reasonable person. It is a pity that you are “leaving”, as people with your spirit and attitude make it a more pleasant forum to be on. And perhaps this forum is not for you. As a free email service proponent, you may feel outnumbered by those that prefer paid services. Those members, many of whom have a fastmail account, are also very vocal. Typically people that pay for service that is also available for free, are more “committed”, “enthusiastic”, and let’s face it - fanatic about email in general. (I am one of them). By their sheer numbers, they create a certain spirit on the forum. An I believe that was what alienated you. In other words, I can see your frustration. Having said that, I believe that there is enough room and interest among the members, who do discuss free services. The proportions of “free” vs “paid” discussion might have changed, but that’s only because of the major increase on the fastmail forum. The “free” part is still there, with a lot of people participating. Personally, the more treads I read, the more I learn. Some may not be of immediate interest to me, but you never know... Think about it.

23 Nov 2002, 09:27 PM	#9
Adam Lachlan Master of the @ Join Date: May 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,004	It's a shame when something like this happens. but it's happened before: http://emailaddresses.com/forum/show...&threadid=5998

23 Nov 2002, 11:35 PM	#10
denverharless Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Denver Posts: 505	obiwaren, fare thee well! Best wishes to you, sincerely! I have thought about putting a stop to my own reading of these forums, but for very different reasons. My main reason is that I seem to be addicted to this site. I learn so much, but I spend too much time here. Likewise, I think I spend too much time planning the perfect email alias/forwarding scenario to ward off spam, etc. No one I know cares so much. But when I do leave it will have nothing to do with the spirit on the boards. I paid very close attention when one of the services were banned last summer (the one you mentioned, obiwaren). Believe me, it was for a very, very good reason! As for the Fastmail bias, well it is undeniable. I joined the forum looking for a free service as well, and at first I was intrigued by the constant referrences to Fastmail and Runbox (I didn't realize that each had their user forums supported on this site). Anyway, when I read Jeremy's posts, I realized that the praise they were receiving was justified. I decided to give them a whirl myself, and have never looked back. You are right, though, that there aren't many advocates for other services on these boards. But, that may just be a function of the times. If Hotmail or Yahoo jerks their customers around again, we are bound to see another influx of readers here. Anyway, when you comparison shop for free services, it's hard not to become a Fastmail advocate. Most places skimp on some feature, but not FM. So, my days of reading these forums may be shortening too. But, I am glad I came around here. Take care, obiwaren!

17 Aug 2003, 01:00 AM	#15
Spin The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Tampa, FL (Cincinnati, OH in the Summer) Posts: 2,446	Sorry to hear that you are leaving obiwaren About fastmail being posted all over the place or every post screaming fastmail I have to disagree. If the post is whats your favorite email provider, or your top 3 favorite email providers fastmail will turn up ALOT. But that is because its such a great email service. And it does have free accounts. I checked out fastmail and I really like it. But I use mailsnare, and check out other providers that other people mention that are free.. (stormcrow) , Sorry your leaving and hope you come back to check up on everything. ___________ Spin