Update HTML to allow more CSS styles

schrijver · 27 Apr 2006, 11:27 PM

When is Fastmail going to update it's HTML? Drop the tables make an cross browser CSS-only style.

Maybe it's an idea to implement a new overall design at once. I think you guys should hire a graphics/css artist like http://www.1lotus.com to create a new housestyle. He's able to make awesome CSS only styles with limmited use of graphics to reduce bandwidth for dialup users.

All HTML elements should get it's own id to get full CSS control.

hobbes · 28 Apr 2006, 12:22 AM

I second this! FM is an outstanding email service, with a poorly-designed front-end.

I'm not after any AJAX. Just well-designed CSS/HTML, by someone who knows what they are doing (ie by a designer, not a programmer)...

robmueller · 28 Apr 2006, 03:09 PM

I'd love to do this!

The biggest issue is suddenly breaking every existing stylesheet. I know that it will have to be done at some stage, but the pain will be great. I'd probably like to employ someone to fix up the existing stylesheets, but everyone with their own custom one will have to update as well. I tell you, customers complain loudly when things that did work stop

There's some issues with pure CSS layouts as well. To be honest, they still don't resize aswell as table based layouts. With a table layout, you can be sure that elements won't overlap and will wrap as necessary. With most CSS layouts, that's hard/impossible to do.

On the other hand, you do get some nice stuff. For instance, check Neils layout here in Firefox:

http://mockups.neilj.fastmail.fm/inboxfixed/inbox.html

I like the way footer sticks to the bottom of the window. But try shrinking the window, things just start overlapping each other which looks horrible. And I don't want to use any "px" sizing in anything, things should scale nicely as people increase/decreate their font size. Again that doesn't work well on Neils mockup.

Having said all that, there's definitely a lot of things that can be improved and with less work.

Maybe we can help prioritise a bit. Are there specific things you want to do but can't do with the current setup?

Rob

schrijver · 28 Apr 2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robmueller
The biggest issue is suddenly breaking every existing stylesheet. I know that it will have to be done at some stage, but the pain will be great. I'd probably like to employ someone to fix up the existing stylesheets, but everyone with their own custom one will have to update as well. I tell you, customers complain loudly when things that did work stop

Is there no possibillity to keep the current HTML for users who still want to use it and make it possible to choose the new CSS layout in the User preferences?

Quote:

There's some issues with pure CSS layouts as well. To be honest, they still don't resize aswell as table based layouts. With a table layout, you can be sure that elements won't overlap and will wrap as necessary. With most CSS layouts, that's hard/impossible to do.

You really should contact 1lotus.com I'm sure he knows a solution to solve such problems and has great ideas to create a new fresh clean design.

Quote:

On the other hand, you do get some nice stuff. For instance, check Neils layout here in Firefox:
http://mockups.neilj.fastmail.fm/inboxfixed/inbox.html

Stop teasing us with that layout!

It's been around since 2004...

Quote:

Maybe we can help prioritise a bit. Are there specific things you want to do but can't do with the current setup?

I think the current HTML has reached it's design limit.

The only option is to raddically introduce new HTML code. For example if you only added some new CSS classes to the existing code you'd still have to recode every single stylesheet.

What is the opinion of the rest of the FM team?

snsh · 28 Apr 2006, 09:56 PM

I think radical redesign isn't the best approach right now. Tweaking the current HTML would solve most of the issues without creating new ones, and would give the most bang for the buck.

all that needs to happen is:
1) giving each existing table, column, button, and action link a unique class id tag
2) removing all the cellspacing, bold, font size, span, superscript, and possibly width tags in the HTML, replacing some of them with id tags. As each thing is taken out of the HTML and replaced by and id, the pro blue stylesheet (http://professionalblue.fastmail.fm/compactproblue.css) would be updated to keep things looking more or less backwards compatible.

When that's all done, users can go wild with their stylesheets, changing fonts, colors, and sizes. They can replace text with images, hide columns they don't care for, whatever. Or they can leave things as is if they're happier with how things are now.

edit: a good place to start would be giving an id to the 2nd action table, just above the messagelist. i'd like to display:none it.

Aimlink · 28 Apr 2006, 11:43 PM

My main problem is that I'd apply a stylesheet and love it save for the fonts hard-coded into it.

I wish for flexibility with font face and size.

robmueller · 29 Apr 2006, 10:43 AM

This makes sense to me. I didn't think it was tables per-se that were the issue, using specific sizing in the HTML I can understand being an issue. Left overs from the NS4 days...

Rob

Quote:

Originally posted by snsh
I think radical redesign isn't the best approach right now. Tweaking the current HTML would solve most of the issues without creating new ones, and would give the most bang for the buck.

all that needs to happen is:
1) giving each existing table, column, button, and action link a unique class id tag
2) removing all the cellspacing, bold, font size, span, superscript, and possibly width tags in the HTML, replacing some of them with id tags. As each thing is taken out of the HTML and replaced by and id, the pro blue stylesheet (http://professionalblue.fastmail.fm/compactproblue.css) would be updated to keep things looking more or less backwards compatible.

When that's all done, users can go wild with their stylesheets, changing fonts, colors, and sizes. They can replace text with images, hide columns they don't care for, whatever. Or they can leave things as is if they're happier with how things are now.

edit: a good place to start would be giving an id to the 2nd action table, just above the messagelist. i'd like to display:none it.

snsh · 29 Apr 2006, 12:28 PM

on second thought, the updates should go into defaults.css.
this gets included before the main stylesheet gets included,
which can keep changes from breaking anyone's stylesheet.

Aimlink · 29 Apr 2006, 10:17 PM

I was just looking into whether or not my wife has a webmail interface for her e-mail. She currently uses POP and seems to be now developing the desire to be able to check mail at multiple locations and machines.

She e-mail address is based on another of my domains. However, not one hosted by FastMail. I'd have to purchase a FastMail account for her and I'm not about to do this since I don't have to pay for what she uses.

Anyway, they do have a webmail interface called RoundCube.

I'm not really familiar with the features. However, I found the look quite refreshing and I think the transition will likely be smooth for her since it will look familiar.

http://www.roundcube.net/images/scre...il_listing.jpg
http://www.roundcube.net/images/scre...view_block.jpg

It's a simple interface, but nice, with familiar buttons, nice appearing buttons.

I know it's far, but this is where my taste is taking me.

snsh · 30 Apr 2006, 12:26 AM

If you have a also webhost that supports php/sql,
then you can install roundcube yourself for your wife to use.
You could also install IMP, Squirrelmail, or emumail.

I did this for a cousin to help him around his company's webmail-blocking firewall.

Aimlink · 30 Apr 2006, 12:50 AM

snsh,

My webhost does offer that ability. However, like all unknown things, this seems like a daunting task. I've never done anything like that before.

However, now that I know about the possibility, I may have a look at it at a later date. It all depends on how much I need it.

27 Apr 2006, 11:27 PM	#1
schrijver Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 64	Update HTML to allow more CSS styles When is Fastmail going to update it's HTML? Drop the tables make an cross browser CSS-only style. Maybe it's an idea to implement a new overall design at once. I think you guys should hire a graphics/css artist like http://www.1lotus.com to create a new housestyle. He's able to make awesome CSS only styles with limmited use of graphics to reduce bandwidth for dialup users. All HTML elements should get it's own id to get full CSS control.

28 Apr 2006, 09:56 PM	#5
snsh Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 611	less radical approach I think radical redesign isn't the best approach right now. Tweaking the current HTML would solve most of the issues without creating new ones, and would give the most bang for the buck. all that needs to happen is: 1) giving each existing table, column, button, and action link a unique class id tag 2) removing all the cellspacing, bold, font size, span, superscript, and possibly width tags in the HTML, replacing some of them with id tags. As each thing is taken out of the HTML and replaced by and id, the pro blue stylesheet (http://professionalblue.fastmail.fm/compactproblue.css) would be updated to keep things looking more or less backwards compatible. When that's all done, users can go wild with their stylesheets, changing fonts, colors, and sizes. They can replace text with images, hide columns they don't care for, whatever. Or they can leave things as is if they're happier with how things are now. edit: a good place to start would be giving an id to the 2nd action table, just above the messagelist. i'd like to display:none it. Last edited by snsh : 28 Apr 2006 at 10:03 PM.

28 Apr 2006, 12:22 AM	#2
hobbes Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: UK Posts: 463	I second this! FM is an outstanding email service, with a poorly-designed front-end. I'm not after any AJAX. Just well-designed CSS/HTML, by someone who knows what they are doing (ie by a designer, not a programmer)...

28 Apr 2006, 03:09 PM	#3
robmueller Intergalactic Postmaster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 6,102 Representative of: Fastmail.FM	I'd love to do this! The biggest issue is suddenly breaking every existing stylesheet. I know that it will have to be done at some stage, but the pain will be great. I'd probably like to employ someone to fix up the existing stylesheets, but everyone with their own custom one will have to update as well. I tell you, customers complain loudly when things that did work stop There's some issues with pure CSS layouts as well. To be honest, they still don't resize aswell as table based layouts. With a table layout, you can be sure that elements won't overlap and will wrap as necessary. With most CSS layouts, that's hard/impossible to do. On the other hand, you do get some nice stuff. For instance, check Neils layout here in Firefox: http://mockups.neilj.fastmail.fm/inboxfixed/inbox.html I like the way footer sticks to the bottom of the window. But try shrinking the window, things just start overlapping each other which looks horrible. And I don't want to use any "px" sizing in anything, things should scale nicely as people increase/decreate their font size. Again that doesn't work well on Neils mockup. Having said all that, there's definitely a lot of things that can be improved and with less work. Maybe we can help prioritise a bit. Are there specific things you want to do but can't do with the current setup? Rob

28 Apr 2006, 11:43 PM	#6
Aimlink Master of the @ Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Here and Now... Posts: 1,078	My main problem is that I'd apply a stylesheet and love it save for the fonts hard-coded into it. I wish for flexibility with font face and size.

29 Apr 2006, 12:28 PM	#8
snsh Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 611	on second thought, the updates should go into defaults.css. this gets included before the main stylesheet gets included, which can keep changes from breaking anyone's stylesheet.

29 Apr 2006, 10:17 PM	#9
Aimlink Master of the @ Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Here and Now... Posts: 1,078	I was just looking into whether or not my wife has a webmail interface for her e-mail. She currently uses POP and seems to be now developing the desire to be able to check mail at multiple locations and machines. She e-mail address is based on another of my domains. However, not one hosted by FastMail. I'd have to purchase a FastMail account for her and I'm not about to do this since I don't have to pay for what she uses. Anyway, they do have a webmail interface called RoundCube. I'm not really familiar with the features. However, I found the look quite refreshing and I think the transition will likely be smooth for her since it will look familiar. http://www.roundcube.net/images/scre...il_listing.jpg http://www.roundcube.net/images/scre...view_block.jpg It's a simple interface, but nice, with familiar buttons, nice appearing buttons. I know it's far, but this is where my taste is taking me.

30 Apr 2006, 12:26 AM	#10
snsh Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 611	If you have a also webhost that supports php/sql, then you can install roundcube yourself for your wife to use. You could also install IMP, Squirrelmail, or emumail. I did this for a cousin to help him around his company's webmail-blocking firewall.

30 Apr 2006, 12:50 AM	#11
Aimlink Master of the @ Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Here and Now... Posts: 1,078	snsh, My webhost does offer that ability. However, like all unknown things, this seems like a daunting task. I've never done anything like that before. However, now that I know about the possibility, I may have a look at it at a later date. It all depends on how much I need it.