Gmail Issues with Apple's Mail

Kevs · 3 Mar 2016, 12:06 PM

I just got on board with Google apps, and I use Apple Mail. I'm seeing some new odd issues. If anyone can help. I have emailed them, but they are not sure yet... Anyone seen this?

1) Gmail is putting copy of all sent email into inbox, I don’t need that. I don’t know what setting, never seen this until I moved to Google gmail. Very odd, hard to even fathom. I hit reply and sometimes I see the symbol and the email stays put in the inbox at the bottom, and others times, the email shoots up to the top of the inbox, which I don't like, with reply symbol, which I don't like. and adds my name to the header which I don't like. And if I reply to an email from a subfolder, all this also takes place in the inbox, even though the email was never in the inbox to begin with. I neverr saw this before with my previous email server. Is this normal Gmail behavior with Apple Mail?

2) Delete, Undo, does not work, command Z to undo delete

3) I have a subfolder with 20 emails in it. Those emails have vanished. Never seen that happen before. I can't even speculate, was it me or them? But when I last clicked, I same them all there, and in a millisecond flash, and then they were gone.

4) The reply symbol works, but not 100% as before.

I have a few other issues but I'll start with these two!

lane · 4 Mar 2016, 03:29 AM

I don't have Apple Mail, so I am not sure what interactions there might be with Google Apps that are causing your problems. But here are some thoughts that might or might not help you.

Regarding #3: You need to know that Google Apps (effectively Gmail) does not actually have "folders". It has "labels", which in practice are mapped to apparent folders in any IMAP client, presumably including Apple Mail. But there is only ever one copy of a message in Gmail, that may or may not have one or more labels associated with it. This is more obvious in the web interface. This is what might have happened to you: if you "copied" messages in Apple Mail into a folder in Apple Mail, Google Apps simply adds the label with that folder name to the message. If you later delete the email in one of Apple Mail's folders, it gets moved to the trash; effectively the apparent "copy" in any other folder gets moved to the trash at that time as well.

Conclusion: Gmail's model (i.e. Google Apps) does not support very well the idea of having a copy of an email in multiple folders. For example, if I put a message regarding taxes into my "taxes" folder and also my "action" folder, then delete it from my "action" folder when I have completed the action, it will be deleted from "taxes" as well. Easier to use the web interface so you can remove the "action" label without touching the "taxes" label. Or "move" it in Apple Mail from "action" to "taxes", even if it is already there, probably will also work. Experiment a bit.

Regarding #1: if you have a filter in Gmail which matches sent mail, then any sent mail that matches the filter will have the "inbox" label. In my case, for reasons complicated to explain, I have a filter that says that if an email has my name as sender, don't put it in spam. This results in all email that I send from Google Apps appearing in my inbox. That's OK for me - since it happens to all sent emails, I just ignore the sent items folder.

Regarding your questions in the Fastmail thread about other vendors: Fastmail is very very good, but from comments on the forum, I think support is not quick. (I have not had issues requiring support.) Of the other possible vendors, Polarismail (www.polarismail.com) is one I have used which has (a) very good and fast IMAP and (b) quick support, not to mention (c) very reasonable cost. Although I have normally just emailed Polarismail support, they do have an 800 number that responds quickly, as well as some sort of chat web app. I believe they can also assist in transfer of email. They are located in Montreal (EST/EDT), so their time zone for quick support may better align with yours if you are in North America. (Fastmail's support is in Australia.)

Kevs · 4 Mar 2016, 06:11 AM

Thanks Lane, lot of good info there so I'll start with just a couple of questions. My spam software developer suggested I put this filter in Gmail:

Matches: from

@)
Do this: Never send it to Spam

This was so his product would function as core spam filter.

This is the only filter. Do you think this is causing sent mail to always show in inbox?

As for Polaris, have you used them? Do you think they would be as good as fastmail for imap and Apple Mail? They seem to have been around as long as fastmail, right, and claim they are mainly about business email. Why do people seem to think of fastmail as the gold standard? Is Polaris well known..?

As for the disappearing emails, I was dragging in Apple mail mostly, one email at a time from the inbox to a sub-folder. That's it. Not a copy. I don't if that helped.

lane · 4 Mar 2016, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevs

This is the only filter. Do you think this is causing sent mail to always show in inbox?

I think it is very likely.

Yes, I have an enhanced account at Polarismail for myself and a basic one for my wife. They work very well using IMAP with any program I have used with them, which includes Thunderbird, Outlook 2016 (the desktop program that is part of Office 2016), Windows Live Mail, and email apps on my iPhone and also Android tablet. I have no means of testing Apple Mail, however, and if it is not standards compliant perhaps there might be issues. I rather doubt it, though.

There are differences in advanced features between Fastmail and Polarismail. These might not make any difference to you if you don't use them, and I wouldn't know what might be important to you. I feel Fastmail has a better webmail interface, though POlarismail offers you a choice of several, but you propose to use Apple Mail, not webmail, so that would not matter. I also think Polarismail is a little weaker in spam handling, but perhaps that is because I use advanced Fastmail features to tailor things more. Polarismail gives you an awful lot of email storage (25GB) for less money.

I believe Fastmail has been in the business longer than Polarismail - I'm not sure when Polarismail started. I would not care to point you to one or the other, though, as I think highly of both.

And I can't speak to Apple Mail specific issues, as I don't have it.

Kevs · 4 Mar 2016, 09:27 AM

Thanks Lane will test removing that now.

A buddy who said to just stay with Gmail, and said he would worry about using these other services... as they might go out of business whereas Gmail will be around.

He also does not mind using the Gmail web interface 100% of the time, thus avoiding the headaches I'm writing about. It's true no that if you only use Gmail web interface, you wont have any issues- you are working from the source? I just found it so clunky compared to Mail or Outlook which I used before. Your opinion on that and what do you use most of the time?

FredOnline · 4 Mar 2016, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevs

Why do people seem to think of fastmail as the gold standard?

Bear in mind this forum has a bias towards Fastmail - the owner of the forum way back in the day was either good friends with some of the guys at Fastmail or a very satisfied customer (I'm sure others with more knowledge of this will chip in) - so much so that the color scheme of the forum (more or less) matched the Fastmail website.

Times have moved on and recently a post from robn indicated that they don't think all that much of this forum any more.

David · 4 Mar 2016, 08:17 PM

I am in the uk, using an iPad. I am unable to use anything else as do not have wifi password. When I send mail using a different email account it gets sent from the owners address. Message replies are sent back to the owners address.

Is there any quick fix for this. Thanks! I really hate this ipad.:

lane · 4 Mar 2016, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am in the uk, using an iPad. I am unable to use anything else as do not have wifi password. When I send mail using a different email account it gets sent from the owners address. Message replies are sent back to the owners address.

Is there any quick fix for this. Thanks! I really hate this ipad.:

David, did you post in the right place? I don't think your question has anything to do with the original poster's questions regarding Google Apps and Apple Mail.

lane · 4 Mar 2016, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevs

He also does not mind using the Gmail web interface 100% of the time, thus avoiding the headaches I'm writing about. It's true no that if you only use Gmail web interface, you wont have any issues- you are working from the source? I just found it so clunky compared to Mail or Outlook which I used before. Your opinion on that and what do you use most of the time?

Your choice to use the web interface or a desktop client depends only on what is easiest and most productive for you. I move quickly and easily between both. The web interface takes no setup time if you are using email in a new location, for example, at a friend's house, or traveling. The desktop client is easier for me when creating more complex emails, for example, sending photos to my children.

What I use myself is probably not relevant to you. But if you're curious: I live in a rural area and high-speed internet is not very good here. I switched internet supplier a few months ago to get a faster connection, but this connection tends to drop the persistent IMAP connection (IMAP "IDLE") used for instant email notifications. As a result, I switched my wife to a purchased Microsoft Exchange Online account using desktop Outlook 2016 as a client, because I want something that works flawlessly without warning popups for her. For myself, I use Fastmail for my main account at the moment, and an outlook.com account for bacn, i.e., newsletters, online accounts, advertising, etc. I also maintain a mirror of my wife's Exchange account at Polarismail, as backup, historical records, and so that when I check her email (hers is essentially the family account), the email is not marked "read" in her inbox.

Google Apps is very good and extremely reliable. I would say that if you can get used to the learning issues regarding labels vs. folders, it would be a good choice.

Kevs · 5 Mar 2016, 12:37 AM

Thanks Lane, I could adjust for sure to Google.
The labels are essentially folders, you can even drag and drop, but it's not as fluid as Mail.

I don't see ever the need to label the same email twice, I would just tread gmail labels as Mail folders.

BTW, that post from fastmail, mentioned an outage. This is why my webhoster got away from handling clients email. Their provider would have these drop for a day or two once a year, and got tons of complaints. Does Google have these outages or drops? I imagine Google is more reliable in that respect than fastmail or others as they have so much money for equipment.

I am still worried about that issue I posted on the other thread about that folder where those 20 emails just vanished.

I am now on IMAP, my spam developer friend said Google is known for communication issues with IMAP. I saw that happen a week ago, but since then things have been ok.

BTW, Google apps, the email part is the same as free gmail more or less correct? Sadly I don't use anything so far from the apps of Google apps except email.

lane · 5 Mar 2016, 02:05 AM

I think the last Fastmail outage of any consequence happened many years ago. I know that during Hurricane Sandy in New York in 2012, they were up the whole time despite days of power outage, with the data center trucking in fuel as required for the generators. Gmail experiences a few outages from time to time.

I don't know why your 20 emails vanished, sorry, other than my thought that they were deleted in one folder or from the inbox, resulting in them being deleted elsewhere as well. If not that, perhaps some Apple Mail issue. Are they in "All Mail" in the web interface, or "Trash", or "Spam"?

Google Apps email is identical to Gmail, except in a few cases where extra capability is available by having your own domain. For example, your domain Google Apps administrator (probably yourself) can permit or deny certain Google Apps programs to your users, domain aliases can be created for yourself or other users, no ads appear etc. But the interface, mail handling, yes those are the same.

The one IMAP issue I heard about with Gmail is this one: Problems with moving e-mails from GMAIL to PolarisMail using IMAP, though that is old and probably fixed by now. I find Gmail's IMAP rock solid myself, other than the labels/folders confusion.

Kevs · 5 Mar 2016, 03:14 AM

Thanks Lane, I just did Time machine restore of the twenty emails. I'm rusty and don't use TM that much and it, TM, was real impressive! Are you on Mac?

Listen: the 20 emails were dragged one at a time over a 4-5 day period into a subfolder, while I was in Apple Mail. I don't recall doing anything funny or odd, and then a few days later the folder in Mail and Gmail was and is empty. I saw a millisecond, flash with them all there, when I did my final click on that folder in Gmail and boom they were gone.

You would think they might be all in trash, but only 1-2 are in trash with the label trash, and the label of that folder.

As for All Mail, someone told me that those are copies which take up hard drive space (an issue with Apple and imap, hard drive space on laptop especially), and he recommended to solve that that I uncheck the all mail gmail setting for imap and that solved the archive label/ folder from being full giving me unwanted copies. I'm not used to unwanted copies I dont need. So that folder is always empty (archive)

lane · 5 Mar 2016, 03:46 AM

Time Machine sounds impressive. I don't have a Mac - never have had one - so I can't speculate about Mac-like things.

Again, I don't know what happened to the 20 emails.

Hiding "All Mail" is actually a good idea. On the server side, these are not extra copies, they are the only copy, and each message may have one or more labels attached. If it does, it will appear in each Mac Apple Mail folder corresponding to each label it has. Each copy will take up storage space on your Mac, but only once in Gmail.

If you do have "All Mail" turned off to IMAP, you need to be very disciplined about moving messages only on the Mac and not on the web, because they may then disappear from sight.

To see if there are emails on the server that are hidden from the Mac because they exist only in "All Mail", that is, they have no user label, type the following search term into the search box in the web interface to Gmail:

has:nouserlabels -in:inbox -in:sent

Another thought is to search on the sender and/or content of the missing messages, but using the web interface (which searches everything). You really should turn off conversation threading while you do this sort of thing, or you will get terribly confused.

Also remember that many email programs can be set to automatically empty the trash when the program is closed. If Apple Mail does this, the emails may have been permanently deleted - good thing Time Machine worked for you.

Finally, if you have restored the emails (using Time Machine) to the Gmail server, you will never figure out where they went. That is because, if they were there somewhere, just hidden to the Mac, bringing them back on the Mac just adds a label to any copy that might have been already there but hidden, making it visible again to the Mac. You cannot distinguish afterwards whether it was already there.

Kevs · 5 Mar 2016, 06:08 AM

Thanks Lane, ok so never drag or even move with dropdown again with Gmail? Fine me me, I was just practicing there a bit, yet, I don't think all those twenty could have been accidentally moved in gmail, as for that folder, all I did was drag into it, and then left it alone.

I did see a couple in my trash from a search in Mail but that's it. It had the label of the folder and the trash label, yet it was not in the folder. The folder (or label) was empty.

I don't have an auto dump setting for trash.
I did the has:nouserlabels -in:inbox -in:sent search.
Intereresting in brought up a similar sub-folder, but not the one with the missing emails. The restored emails are 'on my mac" not the server.

Finally, I just tested as you suggested, to search on web, gmail for some of the people in that folder. Right away one guy came up. Not on initial search but it says, some additional results may be in trash or spam. He had 4 labels, and one was the folder in question. But only when I clicked trash did it see the correct message, not with other labels. I tested two other people and nothing came up at all. So I'm still stumped on it. But ok, these were not critical at all, but it worries me, can it happen again?

Still, a couple of weeks ago, I had connections drops to Mail, and my software buddy said Gmail is well knows for that with Mail, but I have not see any issue since. So if I can get stability with Gmail and Mail, I'd prefer staying... we'll see.. Still a few quirky issues. But you say, and others have too that Gmail is very stable, (especially if you are not on imap), my issues then I guess ultimately now is Gmail with Mail... Maybe I'll post a topic later for few folks who use both.

David · 5 Mar 2016, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lane

David, did you post in the right place? I don't think your question has anything to do with the original poster's questions regarding Google Apps and Apple Mail.

Please see the thread title:

When I use GMail, all replies are being sent to Apple mail - to the owner of the ipad I am using

Thanks

That said, it really does not matter any more. I am long gone from that location.

3 Mar 2016, 12:06 PM	#1
Kevs Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 77	Gmail Issues with Apple's Mail I just got on board with Google apps, and I use Apple Mail. I'm seeing some new odd issues. If anyone can help. I have emailed them, but they are not sure yet... Anyone seen this? 1) Gmail is putting copy of all sent email into inbox, I don’t need that. I don’t know what setting, never seen this until I moved to Google gmail. Very odd, hard to even fathom. I hit reply and sometimes I see the symbol and the email stays put in the inbox at the bottom, and others times, the email shoots up to the top of the inbox, which I don't like, with reply symbol, which I don't like. and adds my name to the header which I don't like. And if I reply to an email from a subfolder, all this also takes place in the inbox, even though the email was never in the inbox to begin with. I neverr saw this before with my previous email server. Is this normal Gmail behavior with Apple Mail? 2) Delete, Undo, does not work, command Z to undo delete 3) I have a subfolder with 20 emails in it. Those emails have vanished. Never seen that happen before. I can't even speculate, was it me or them? But when I last clicked, I same them all there, and in a millisecond flash, and then they were gone. 4) The reply symbol works, but not 100% as before. I have a few other issues but I'll start with these two! Last edited by Kevs : 4 Mar 2016 at 01:09 AM.

4 Mar 2016, 03:29 AM	#2
lane Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kars, NB, Canada Posts: 702	I don't have Apple Mail, so I am not sure what interactions there might be with Google Apps that are causing your problems. But here are some thoughts that might or might not help you. Regarding #3: You need to know that Google Apps (effectively Gmail) does not actually have "folders". It has "labels", which in practice are mapped to apparent folders in any IMAP client, presumably including Apple Mail. But there is only ever one copy of a message in Gmail, that may or may not have one or more labels associated with it. This is more obvious in the web interface. This is what might have happened to you: if you "copied" messages in Apple Mail into a folder in Apple Mail, Google Apps simply adds the label with that folder name to the message. If you later delete the email in one of Apple Mail's folders, it gets moved to the trash; effectively the apparent "copy" in any other folder gets moved to the trash at that time as well. Conclusion: Gmail's model (i.e. Google Apps) does not support very well the idea of having a copy of an email in multiple folders. For example, if I put a message regarding taxes into my "taxes" folder and also my "action" folder, then delete it from my "action" folder when I have completed the action, it will be deleted from "taxes" as well. Easier to use the web interface so you can remove the "action" label without touching the "taxes" label. Or "move" it in Apple Mail from "action" to "taxes", even if it is already there, probably will also work. Experiment a bit. Regarding #1: if you have a filter in Gmail which matches sent mail, then any sent mail that matches the filter will have the "inbox" label. In my case, for reasons complicated to explain, I have a filter that says that if an email has my name as sender, don't put it in spam. This results in all email that I send from Google Apps appearing in my inbox. That's OK for me - since it happens to all sent emails, I just ignore the sent items folder. Regarding your questions in the Fastmail thread about other vendors: Fastmail is very very good, but from comments on the forum, I think support is not quick. (I have not had issues requiring support.) Of the other possible vendors, Polarismail (www.polarismail.com) is one I have used which has (a) very good and fast IMAP and (b) quick support, not to mention (c) very reasonable cost. Although I have normally just emailed Polarismail support, they do have an 800 number that responds quickly, as well as some sort of chat web app. I believe they can also assist in transfer of email. They are located in Montreal (EST/EDT), so their time zone for quick support may better align with yours if you are in North America. (Fastmail's support is in Australia.)

4 Mar 2016, 06:11 AM	#3
Kevs Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 77	Thanks Lane, lot of good info there so I'll start with just a couple of questions. My spam software developer suggested I put this filter in Gmail: Matches: from@) Do this: Never send it to Spam This was so his product would function as core spam filter. This is the only filter. Do you think this is causing sent mail to always show in inbox? As for Polaris, have you used them? Do you think they would be as good as fastmail for imap and Apple Mail? They seem to have been around as long as fastmail, right, and claim they are mainly about business email. Why do people seem to think of fastmail as the gold standard? Is Polaris well known..? As for the disappearing emails, I was dragging in Apple mail mostly, one email at a time from the inbox to a sub-folder. That's it. Not a copy. I don't if that helped.

4 Mar 2016, 09:27 AM	#5
Kevs Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 77	Thanks Lane will test removing that now. A buddy who said to just stay with Gmail, and said he would worry about using these other services... as they might go out of business whereas Gmail will be around. He also does not mind using the Gmail web interface 100% of the time, thus avoiding the headaches I'm writing about. It's true no that if you only use Gmail web interface, you wont have any issues- you are working from the source? I just found it so clunky compared to Mail or Outlook which I used before. Your opinion on that and what do you use most of the time?

4 Mar 2016, 08:17 PM	#7
David Ultimate Contributor Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada. Posts: 10,355	I am in the uk, using an iPad. I am unable to use anything else as do not have wifi password. When I send mail using a different email account it gets sent from the owners address. Message replies are sent back to the owners address. Is there any quick fix for this. Thanks! I really hate this ipad.:

5 Mar 2016, 12:37 AM	#10
Kevs Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 77	Thanks Lane, I could adjust for sure to Google. The labels are essentially folders, you can even drag and drop, but it's not as fluid as Mail. I don't see ever the need to label the same email twice, I would just tread gmail labels as Mail folders. BTW, that post from fastmail, mentioned an outage. This is why my webhoster got away from handling clients email. Their provider would have these drop for a day or two once a year, and got tons of complaints. Does Google have these outages or drops? I imagine Google is more reliable in that respect than fastmail or others as they have so much money for equipment. I am still worried about that issue I posted on the other thread about that folder where those 20 emails just vanished. I am now on IMAP, my spam developer friend said Google is known for communication issues with IMAP. I saw that happen a week ago, but since then things have been ok. BTW, Google apps, the email part is the same as free gmail more or less correct? Sadly I don't use anything so far from the apps of Google apps except email.

5 Mar 2016, 02:05 AM	#11
lane Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kars, NB, Canada Posts: 702	I think the last Fastmail outage of any consequence happened many years ago. I know that during Hurricane Sandy in New York in 2012, they were up the whole time despite days of power outage, with the data center trucking in fuel as required for the generators. Gmail experiences a few outages from time to time. I don't know why your 20 emails vanished, sorry, other than my thought that they were deleted in one folder or from the inbox, resulting in them being deleted elsewhere as well. If not that, perhaps some Apple Mail issue. Are they in "All Mail" in the web interface, or "Trash", or "Spam"? Google Apps email is identical to Gmail, except in a few cases where extra capability is available by having your own domain. For example, your domain Google Apps administrator (probably yourself) can permit or deny certain Google Apps programs to your users, domain aliases can be created for yourself or other users, no ads appear etc. But the interface, mail handling, yes those are the same. The one IMAP issue I heard about with Gmail is this one: Problems with moving e-mails from GMAIL to PolarisMail using IMAP, though that is old and probably fixed by now. I find Gmail's IMAP rock solid myself, other than the labels/folders confusion.

5 Mar 2016, 03:14 AM	#12
Kevs Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 77	Thanks Lane, I just did Time machine restore of the twenty emails. I'm rusty and don't use TM that much and it, TM, was real impressive! Are you on Mac? Listen: the 20 emails were dragged one at a time over a 4-5 day period into a subfolder, while I was in Apple Mail. I don't recall doing anything funny or odd, and then a few days later the folder in Mail and Gmail was and is empty. I saw a millisecond, flash with them all there, when I did my final click on that folder in Gmail and boom they were gone. You would think they might be all in trash, but only 1-2 are in trash with the label trash, and the label of that folder. As for All Mail, someone told me that those are copies which take up hard drive space (an issue with Apple and imap, hard drive space on laptop especially), and he recommended to solve that that I uncheck the all mail gmail setting for imap and that solved the archive label/ folder from being full giving me unwanted copies. I'm not used to unwanted copies I dont need. So that folder is always empty (archive)

5 Mar 2016, 03:46 AM	#13
lane Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kars, NB, Canada Posts: 702	Time Machine sounds impressive. I don't have a Mac - never have had one - so I can't speculate about Mac-like things. Again, I don't know what happened to the 20 emails. Hiding "All Mail" is actually a good idea. On the server side, these are not extra copies, they are the only copy, and each message may have one or more labels attached. If it does, it will appear in each Mac Apple Mail folder corresponding to each label it has. Each copy will take up storage space on your Mac, but only once in Gmail. If you do have "All Mail" turned off to IMAP, you need to be very disciplined about moving messages only on the Mac and not on the web, because they may then disappear from sight. To see if there are emails on the server that are hidden from the Mac because they exist only in "All Mail", that is, they have no user label, type the following search term into the search box in the web interface to Gmail: has:nouserlabels -in:inbox -in:sent Another thought is to search on the sender and/or content of the missing messages, but using the web interface (which searches everything). You really should turn off conversation threading while you do this sort of thing, or you will get terribly confused. Also remember that many email programs can be set to automatically empty the trash when the program is closed. If Apple Mail does this, the emails may have been permanently deleted - good thing Time Machine worked for you. Finally, if you have restored the emails (using Time Machine) to the Gmail server, you will never figure out where they went. That is because, if they were there somewhere, just hidden to the Mac, bringing them back on the Mac just adds a label to any copy that might have been already there but hidden, making it visible again to the Mac. You cannot distinguish afterwards whether it was already there.

5 Mar 2016, 06:08 AM	#14
Kevs Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 77	Thanks Lane, ok so never drag or even move with dropdown again with Gmail? Fine me me, I was just practicing there a bit, yet, I don't think all those twenty could have been accidentally moved in gmail, as for that folder, all I did was drag into it, and then left it alone. I did see a couple in my trash from a search in Mail but that's it. It had the label of the folder and the trash label, yet it was not in the folder. The folder (or label) was empty. I don't have an auto dump setting for trash. I did the has:nouserlabels -in:inbox -in:sent search. Intereresting in brought up a similar sub-folder, but not the one with the missing emails. The restored emails are 'on my mac" not the server. Finally, I just tested as you suggested, to search on web, gmail for some of the people in that folder. Right away one guy came up. Not on initial search but it says, some additional results may be in trash or spam. He had 4 labels, and one was the folder in question. But only when I clicked trash did it see the correct message, not with other labels. I tested two other people and nothing came up at all. So I'm still stumped on it. But ok, these were not critical at all, but it worries me, can it happen again? Still, a couple of weeks ago, I had connections drops to Mail, and my software buddy said Gmail is well knows for that with Mail, but I have not see any issue since. So if I can get stability with Gmail and Mail, I'd prefer staying... we'll see.. Still a few quirky issues. But you say, and others have too that Gmail is very stable, (especially if you are not on imap), my issues then I guess ultimately now is Gmail with Mail... Maybe I'll post a topic later for few folks who use both.