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Old 2 Apr 2018, 02:24 AM   #1
elvey
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Join Date: Jan 2002
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Posts: 2,420
Undelete bug!

Undelete doesn't work if the email undeleted was filed into trash by Rules (Sieve) in the first place. It's moved in some sense; it momentarily disappears and then reappears.

Use case: I have some email sent to [[email protected]]. Sieve sees the 'trash" and puts it in the trash. Occasionally there's something useful, so I go search for it. I undeleted something and was then about to empty the trash (well, a folder in the trash) when I realized that the email I had undeleted was still in the same folder in the trash. (It wasn't actually an important email, but I didn't want to delete it.)

If staff wants to look at it:
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Old 2 Apr 2018, 09:23 AM   #2
n5bb
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Arrow Undelete restores message to previous folder before deletion

It appears to me that the Undelete button is working as it was intended. From Help:
Quote:
If you find something your want to keep in your Trash, use the "Undelete" button to restore the messages in the conversation to their previous folder (before they were deleted to Trash).
I have rules (or plus+addressing) which delivers some incoming message to certain folders (but not Trash in my case). If I delete such a message it goes to the Trash folder. If I then open it from Trash and undelete it, it is moved back to the previous folder where it sat before the deletion. In that case, this is not Inbox or Trash or Archive but the folder in the rule or plus+address.

In your case, the messages were never in any folder other than Trash. You have never deleted these messages. So when you undelete them, they go back the folder they were in before (which happens to be Trash). I think you imagine that they might go to Inbox, but they were never in the Inbox folder so there is no reason for them to be “returned” to any folder other than Trash.

If you want the message to be moved to your Inbox folder, use the Move To button.

Bill
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Old 10 May 2019, 01:39 PM   #3
elvey
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Trash dealt with inconsistently.

Nope. In my book, Undelete shouldn't be a no-op, period. If I delete a message in a folder called foo, it should be moved to Trash (itself). Even if foo happens to be a subfolder of Trash. And if I then undelete it, it should be moved into the subfolder. That's not inconsistent with the documentation, and I'd put money on it, what users would say is most appropriate / expected behavior.

When using the search feature, messages in subfolders of Trash are not considered to be in Trash:
When a standard search (which the documentation indicates excludes the folders Trash and Archive) is performed, emails in subfolders of Trash ARE searched and listed if they match the search criteria.
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Old 10 May 2019, 02:18 PM   #4
n5bb
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Arrow Trash and Spam folders to not allow web created subfolders

You are changing the stated issue.
  • Your original post says that the message was filed into the Trash folder by a rule. So if you later try to manually undelete that message, where would you want it to go? The message was never deleted, so I have a hard time understanding why undelete should have any effect.
  • If a message is already in the Trash folder, you can't perform a regular Delete operation on it, but you can Delete Permanently the message. So the Undelete action can't possibly have an effect on messages in Trash which were filed by rules into the Trash folder.
  • You can't currently create a subfolder of Spam or Trash using the web interface, since those folders are greyed out and unselectable in the folder create tool. I think that's because of side effects. I think that we used to be able to create subfolders of those folders, but this is no longer possible using the web interface. You can create such subfolders using an email client - I just did this using Thunderbird. But that doesn't mean that it's supported with the other Fastmail features.
  • An interesting aside is that if you create the subfolder Trash.foo using an email client, you can then create the sub-subfolder Trash.foo.doo using the web interface. So the web interface assumes you are only creating folders using that interface, and preventing you from creating subfolders of Trash and Spam is therefore sufficient from creating any subfolder structure under those folders.
  • So if I were you I would not use subfolders of Trash or Spam (even if create in an email client) if you expect to use the web interface.
Bill
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Old 19 May 2019, 02:07 AM   #5
elvey
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Thanks for your thoughts.

We disagree. I think if something is moved to trash, undelete should move it out of the trash. If it was moved there by a script, it should move back to where it would have been without the move to trash, which is the inbox, probably. Alternatively, always moving such a message to the inbox would be a reasonable action to take on undelete too. In SIEVE, every message starts out in the inbox; if you make a copy with SIEVE, you put a copy somewhere else; then you have two copies : one in the inbox and one in that other place.

The documentation gave me the impression that the functionality I was trying to achieve by creating a sub folder of trash would work. I wouldn’t have done it otherwise. So I consider it a bug that it doesn’t. And you can disagree.

( I’m still concerned about the bug I’ve reported, and I have added information on what I consider another bug. So I would guess I’ve committed to send those two topics in one thread. Please forgive me.So I would guess I’ve committed to send those two topics in one thread. Please forgive me. I don’t think I changed the initial issue. )
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Old 19 May 2019, 08:49 PM   #6
JeremyNicoll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvey View Post
... In SIEVE, every message starts out in the inbox;
That wasn't my understanding. If I look at the sieve script that's generated from my rules, it ends by saying, in essence, if none of the previous conditions matched, move the email into the inbox.
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Old 20 May 2019, 06:20 AM   #7
xyzzy
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That is correct. If sieve never issues a fileinto, or even if it does but the specified folder doesn't exist, the message will default to be placed in the inbox unless a sieve command want's to file it into some other folder based on some criteria.

Incoming messages don't "start out" in any folder. They are passed through the sieve script one at a time to determine where they are to go.
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Old 20 May 2019, 08:03 AM   #8
n5bb
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After some testing, I found inconsistent results when attempting to undelete messages from the Trash folder which were delivered there using one of the three available methods:I have three Fastmail test accounts. For these three accounts, the results of an undelete of a message filed into the Trash folder by any of the rules above is:
  • Account 1: Undeleted to the Sent folder
  • Account 2: Undeleted to the Inbox folder
  • Account 3: Undeleted to the Inbox folder
I believe that since since the message wasn't originally deleted with a user interface action, the undelete target folder is not well defined. I will send a message to support about this.

Bill
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Old 20 May 2019, 09:42 AM   #9
Terry
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perhaps have the undelet go to a special folder which each customer can set up if required.
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Old 20 May 2019, 10:05 AM   #10
n5bb
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Arrow Action of undelete on messages delivered to Trash by a rule or plus+addressing

I heard from Fastmail staff. In the situation I described (message moved to Trash by a rule or plus+address target):
  • If the message is from an address you have an identity for, it will be moved to your Sent folder. In this case, it appears that you are the sender (since it's sent from one of your identities), so the system moves it to Sent.
  • Otherwise it will be moved to your Inbox.
So messages from others which are automatically filed in Trash should appear in your Inbox when undeleted.

Bill

Last edited by n5bb : 20 May 2019 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 20 May 2019, 12:01 PM   #11
Terry
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I would have thought they need to go into just one box rather than hunt for your mail, perhaps just the Inbox.
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Old 10 Jun 2019, 08:29 AM   #12
elvey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
I would have thought they need to go into just one box rather than hunt for your mail, perhaps just the Inbox.
If you want that behavior, just move them where you want from the trash.
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Old 10 Jun 2019, 08:31 AM   #13
elvey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzzy View Post
That is correct. If sieve never issues a fileinto, or even if it does but the specified folder doesn't exist, the message will default to be placed in the inbox unless a sieve command want's to file it into some other folder based on some criteria.

Incoming messages don't "start out" in any folder. They are passed through the sieve script one at a time to determine where they are to go.
You haven't proved my claim wrong - ... "In SIEVE, every message starts out in the inbox."

In any case, the behavior that bothers me the most is this:
When using the search feature, messages in subfolders of Trash are not considered to be in Trash:
When a standard search (which the documentation indicates excludes the folders Trash and Archive) is performed, emails in subfolders of Trash ARE searched and listed if they match the search criteria.

Last edited by elvey : 10 Jun 2019 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 10 Jun 2019, 02:23 PM   #14
xyzzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvey View Post
You haven't proved my claim wrong - ... "In SIEVE, every message starts out in the inbox."
To quote rfc308 right in it's introduction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rfc3028
Scripts written in Sieve are executed during final delivery, when the message is moved to the user-accessible mailbox.
To me "final delievery" is the point at which the message is ready for its final disposition and the sieve script is called to determine that. But if you choose not to accept then then that's fine. You realize you could settle this once and for all by simply submitting a ticket and asking FM. Tickets don't have to be problem reports.

Quote:
In any case, the behavior that bothers me the most is this:
When using the search feature, messages in subfolders of Trash are not considered to be in Trash:
I once argued in a ticket that the subfolders of trash inherits all of trashes attributes (or more generally a subfolder inherits it's parent's attribute unless overridden). Apparently their response to that is no longer allow subfolders of trash. They won't move the ones that are already there but if you move them out you will never be able to get them back in there again. I "walked" right into that one myself.

Quote:
When a standard search (which the documentation indicates excludes the folders Trash and Archive) is performed, emails in subfolders of Trash ARE searched and listed if they match the search criteria.
Because again they are "normal" user folders.
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Old 10 Jun 2019, 03:20 PM   #15
Terry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvey View Post
If you want that behavior, just move them where you want from the trash.
But if you are clicking un-delete they will go back to the folder where they were deleted from.
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