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Old 22 Jan 2017, 11:55 AM   #121
David
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samhu, and neoforum. I am ceasing to argue. It seems you are correct.

I wish you well.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 12:09 PM   #122
sflorack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neoforum View Post
They didn't sell a "lifetime account or your money back." I bought a lifetime account, end of story. They can't unilaterally undo the sale. They could decide to give me a million dollars, but they would still be bound to maintain the account as they agreed. And by the way, I paid more than $15 for additional storage, which I would also lose if they discontinue the account.
If you accept the $15 refund, your additional storage would still be available.

I respect your tenacity to sticking with the principle of feeling cheated, but your argument is empty. You'd be refunded the entire amount you paid for the account.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 12:23 PM   #123
samhu
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Originally Posted by sflorack View Post

I respect your tenacity to sticking with the principle of feeling cheated, but your argument is empty. You'd be refunded the entire amount you paid for the account.
You'd feel cheated too if someone decided on your behalf that you've had enough from that one-off payment plan, and moved you onto a subscription service.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 12:26 PM   #124
wakaba
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Originally Posted by jchevali View Post
Yes. If instead of "sense of entitlement" they had said "feeling of attachment to something you hold dear, and disappointment of being about to lose it", it would have sounded completely different.

Same people wouldn't have poured scorn on someone complaining the dog they loved had gone through a terrible accident, and yet the market value of a dog in poor health might not exceed that of a year's subscription to an email service, but it might mean significantly more - the world - to his owner.

It's perfectly fine to say "not an issue for me because I'm savvy, I know how to fix it; or, I had my own domain already; or, I'd like $FM to make lots of money", but sensibility to step on someone else's shoes (empathy) is often tested in circumstances like this, without pre-advice you're being tested, and some people don't appear to have it, or rushed to type without thinking their words might sound hurtful to someone. Hope it's the latter.
Nobody is denying that the emotions being expressed in this thread are legitimate or real. Of course they are. Everyone has is entitled to be upset when the world changes. Even the tantrum thrown by a three year old when he loses his toy is a legitimate emotional response.

The question is whether the demands that are being made of FM by said people, in the heat of the moment and as a result of their emotional state, are reasonable. This is what other posters are criticizing -- not the emotional response to FM's change, but the associated sense of entitlement and the resultant demands. We have already had a couple of posters imply that Fastmail should not be allowed to discontinue member accounts except in the case of severe financial distress. This is reflective, I think, of how out-of-touch this thread has become.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 12:41 PM   #125
samhu
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Originally Posted by wakaba View Post

We have already had a couple of posters imply that Fastmail should not be allowed to discontinue member accounts except in the case of severe financial distress. This is reflective, I think, of how out-of-touch this thread has become.
What I originally mentioned was actually -

Quote:
Originally Posted by samhu View Post

Anyway, as we are not privy to how many such legacy accounts there are out there, here's a bit of speculation on my part. Pick a number - 1000? 5000? At the lower number, the sum involved would be USD3k/month, and at the higher end, USD15k/month. And that's with a 100 percent conversion rate from "one-time payment" to "subscriber". If this amount is so critical to Fastmail, maybe we all shouldn’t be so smug about the longevity of any of our Fastmail email addresses? Just a thought.
Let me simplify the final sentence. "If a few thousand dollars per month means so much to Fastmail, maybe they are running on empty? (and if they fold, everyone will lose their Fastmail address(es))".
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 12:45 PM   #126
wakaba
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Originally Posted by samhu View Post
Let me simplify the final sentence. "If a few thousand dollars per month means so much to Fastmail, maybe they are running on empty? (and if they fold, everyone will lose their Fastmail address(es))".
Ah. Just as, when Google shuttered the (free) Google Reader service, the appropriate inference is that GOOG was on the verge of declaring bankruptcy, and was only salvaged by the savings from closing Google Reader.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 12:50 PM   #127
samhu
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Wakaba, I don't understand your logic. Let's just leave it that way. Best regards.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 03:08 PM   #128
Steven Avery
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maintaing multiple payment structures is a lot easier than code base differences

It is understandable that Fastmail does not want to maintain a feature-different special class of accounts that affects the code base. That is a drain.

The problem is that $30/year (after the first freebie year, more or less) is rather substantial, especially if there are multiple accounts involved.

It is a lot easier to have a different payment base than code base.

When I moved away from where there is FIOS I had my Verizon accounts, which had become my permanent email, kept under something called keepyouremail or VerizonYourDomain VYD. Five accounts, $20 per year, or maybe less. I am paid in advance and on autopay. Verizon is not taking any new ones. Now they prevent you from making email name changes to the accounts and there is not much frills. However, the mail goes through, POP or online, and it handles forum mail and can actually have quite a bit (I am POP, but when I was travelling had a couple of thousand emails in there it was no problem.) When I needed some support last week, to get into sub-accounts and fix a password problem, they were a bit puzzled (since I had a Verizon acct# but only the one quirky service) but got it done.

So my recommendation is that Fastmail find a way to let people continue more economically. If the "Lifetime" person has 3 accounts and pays $30/year he should be economically happy. Or 1 account at $10 or $15 a year. e.g. a fee like $10 a year is much closer to nominal, but it shows that the person is using the account as a real thing. And the Fastmail "loss" would be nominal as well, since it is now all one code base.

My thoughts. I may use Fastmail on my personal domain account in the future, a new thing I am trying (no rush because of the Verizon.) I can see how this whole thing is upsetting, but it would not be an integrity deal-breaker.

Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery : 22 Jan 2017 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 08:08 PM   #129
brownb2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samhu View Post
What I originally mentioned was actually -
Let me simplify the final sentence. "If a few thousand dollars per month means so much to Fastmail, maybe they are running on empty? (and if they fold, everyone will lose their Fastmail address(es))".
I've mentioned this a few times earlier in this thread - its quite clear if such a small number of low usage legacy users is bothering FM to the degree that they have to migrate them then they must be having some financial trouble because you wouldn't upset the apple cart for something that would otherwise add negligible gain.
Business users is where it's at for FM IMHO because regular Joe uses ISP email and free mail. The only issue is that businesses tend to favour business email from large providers like Microsoft unless they're small businesses cutting corners.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 08:16 PM   #130
Pfolson
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Originally Posted by neoforum View Post
They can't unilaterally undo the sale.
Except that they can. Read the Terms of Service that you agreed to and you'll see that FastMail is within its rights to do pretty much whatever it wants. This one clause alone tells you that:

Quote:
The Service Provider may terminate your access to any part or all of the Service and any related service(s) at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice, effective immediately, for any reason whatsoever, with or without providing any refund of any payments.
That seems pretty clear to me.

FastMail Terms of Service
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 08:23 PM   #131
brownb2
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As a member user I'll be looking to finalise my move to Google with the free basic for a year (I started the move a few years ago).
Would I pay a subscription to Fastmail?
Yes absolutely.
Would I pay the amount they ask for Basic?
No (although I am still a little fence sitting because a second email provider is always useful)

I have already queried whether FM would provide a new lower than basic account for legacy users for around $5 a year but received no reply. If you think about it, my suggestion was actually quite a sensible policy (if low balling) since next year they could have doubled the cost of the account/made it un-competitive with basic (say $25), but hey what do I know?

In the mean time I would have purchased a price locked three year plan for $15.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 10:00 PM   #132
wakaba
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Originally Posted by brownb2 View Post
I've mentioned this a few times earlier in this thread - its quite clear if such a small number of low usage legacy users is bothering FM to the degree that they have to migrate them then they must be having some financial trouble because you wouldn't upset the apple cart for something that would otherwise add negligible gain.
Again - services for legacy users are terminated all the time in tech. Those users make a huge fuss, and life goes on, unabated, for the company in question.

Google terminated the free service Google reader. Loyal Google reader users made a huge fuss. And I'm sure you then shorted Google because this was a signal that Google must be having financial trouble -- otherwise why upset the apple cart for negligible gain, as you say?
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 10:35 PM   #133
brownb2
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Originally Posted by wakaba View Post
And I'm sure you then shorted Google because this was a signal that Google must be having financial trouble -- otherwise why upset the apple cart for negligible gain, as you say?
The two companies are not even remotely similar in size and structure - you're comparing apples and oranges. Google can afford losses to non core business such as reader.
Fastmail is a much smaller independent company whose core business is affected by legacy accounts.

If you want to continue along this line of reasoning then perhaps you should be comparing it to Google wanting to start charging for email accounts as this is like for like.

But "I'm sure" you must know this and you're just projecting and trolling (for lack of less incendiary term) for fun?
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 11:10 PM   #134
wakaba
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Originally Posted by brownb2 View Post
The two companies are not even remotely similar in size and structure - you're comparing apples and oranges. Google can afford losses to non core business such as reader.
Fastmail is a much smaller independent company whose core business is affected by legacy accounts.
Ah, good. So you can see that terminating a legacy service is not a sign of financial problems. I'm glad the google example was helpful.

Quote:
If you want to continue along this line of reasoning then perhaps you should be comparing it to Google wanting to start charging for email accounts as this is like for like.
Actually, google used to provide free google apps features such as custom domains, but withdrew some of these features from legacy users and started charging for them. Again, another example of Google being in dire financial straits, in your mind?

Quote:
But "I'm sure" you must know this and you're just projecting and trolling (for lack of less incendiary term) for fun?
It's a simple point that you are trying your best to avoid here. You argued that FM "wouldn't upset the apple cart for something that would otherwise add negligible gain". But here is an example where, in fact, another company did upset the apple cart, and in fact received orders of magnitude worse PR, for negligible gain. The isomorphism holds regardless of the size or structure of the company involved. So, if you're going to argue that the two companies are drastically different, then you'll have to explain why the differences affect your original argument. Otherwise, you're just swinging and missing.

(A quick hint: FM, and google, have many reasons to terminate legacy services other than financial distress. Many of them have already been discussed in this thread.)

Last edited by wakaba : 22 Jan 2017 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 22 Jan 2017, 11:56 PM   #135
jchevali
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Once upon a time...

These quotes from 2001.

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Originally Posted by houmi View Post
4) Finally what is the background of people at Fastmail.fm , is this set as a hobby ? or a business venture. I just want to know if it is possible for the people responsible for fastmail.fm to give up for whatever reasons in 1 year and close down the service. Basically what/who is behind fastmail.fm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Howard View Post
It's a hobby business venture. Rob and I do it because we enjoy it--we don't particularly need to make money out of it since we've saved money from previous jobs and have other sources of income, but we'd like to get to the point where it's at least self-funding. I'd say that you're safer with us being around in a year's time than most other ventures. There's no VC to pull the plug. There's no parent company funding this as a promotional venture who might decide its not paying its way. We're not particularly profit-focussed so if we don't get rich out of this we'll still do it. I guess it's possible for us to lose interest at some point--but we've been doing this for 3 years now and are enjoying it more and more all the time. Besides which, we aren't happy with any of the other email services out there (we're very fussy) so we have to keep FastMail.FM running to get the level of service that we demand.
http://www.emaildiscussions.com/show...50&postcount=2
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