Delivery receipt

digp · 3 Jan 2010, 08:00 PM

Any chance of seeing this implemented?

It would be useful for business accounts esp. to show that an email sent had been delivered to the relevant destination.

Thanks.

ChinaLamb · 3 Jan 2010, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digp

Any chance of seeing this implemented?

It would be useful for business accounts esp. to show that an email sent had been delivered to the relevant destination.

Thanks.

A few things to read:
http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/dsn.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/196495

It doesn't appear that many email services are supporting delivery receipts anymore. And according to the first article, the server could support it, but still not send you a delivery receipt under certain conditions.

In short, the first article said, if you don't receive the delivery receipt it doesn't mean much...

Even if it were implemented I doubt it would help that many users.

Where I used to use email, I requested a delivery receipt on every email and only got a handful of receipts per hundred of emails....

digp · 4 Jan 2010, 04:45 AM

you don't use email anymore, chinalamb?

n5bb · 4 Jan 2010, 05:31 AM

The "delivery receipt" issue is rather complex, and has been discussed many times before on these forums.

One issue is what is considered to be "delivery". Do you mean delivery to the recipient email server at the SMTP stage, forwarding to another email address and acceptance at that second destination, or delivery to the user email client?
Any notice returned to the sender other than acceptance at the recipient email server at the SMTP stage is often considered a security issue. For example:
- Send an email to a Fastmail account which forwards (using redirect) to a Gmail account which has a problem (doesn't exist). Gmail rejects the message, causing Fastmail to send a negative SN (Delivery Service Notification) back to the sender. This DSN reveals the Gmail address to the sender, even though the message was originally sent to a Fastmail address.
There really isn't a universal accepted method for getting a positive DSN. There are RFC's for SMTP features and headers which some but not all systems use, but in general you will get a negative DSN if the message can't be delivered to the recipient mailbox, but nothing if the message was delivered. I think that the only way to get these in a controlled manner is using Microsoft Exchange with Outlook for all clients. And the delivery receipt feature can be enabled or disabled by the system administrator, I believe.
To reduce spammer knowledge of their success, it's best to not inform the sender that the message was successfully delivered to the user mailbox.
You can request for the recipient email client (MUA) to generate a return read receipt by using the Fastmail web interface or some email clients (such as Thunderbird). Many clients (such as Fastmail web mail) ignore such requests.
The best way to determine if the recipient has received and read your message is to ask them in the message to respond that they have read and understood the comments.

Bill

jgoldberg · 4 Jan 2010, 06:47 AM

As a former email administrator I have resisted delivery receipts for a number of reasons. But I can sum it up as basically a system, if widely used, that would double email traffic for very little gain.

An additional problem is the information it gives to spammers. Spammers currently have to rely on web bugs and other (evadable) tricks to determine which of their ignored messages made it through filters and were successfully delivered. Honoring delivery receipt requests would be handing incredibly valuable information to spammers.

ChinaLamb · 4 Jan 2010, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digp

you don't use email anymore, chinalamb?

digp,
My business puts out company newsletters and we cannot rely on the delivery receipts, too many systems just don't honor them. As a result, we use other methods to see if they were received or read. Our experience is that these are less and less reliable.

If you do any research on this issue, you will find that many email providers are not supporting asking for delivery receipts because of this very problem.

Also, Last time, your snappy responses to this issue almost got you banned.

http://www.emaildiscussions.com/show...igp#post475568

jgoldberg · 4 Jan 2010, 12:59 PM

I would be curious to know whether there are any email providers that do honor delivery receipt requests. My suspicion is that no professional email service does, but that a few corporate MS-Exchange servers do.

I would like to see what a postmaster from such a site has to say about it.

I remember in the late 90s when the developer of exim asked the user community (a community of postmasters) whether the option to provide these DSNs should be added to exim. Pretty much as one, we didn't even want it as an option. (Not having it as an option made it easier for use to fend off PHBs who were requesting these things.)

Everyone who actually managed email systems knew that it was a bad idea. And now in the days of spam as the vast majority of email traffic, it is a far worse one.

Nonetheless, seeing feature requests like the beginning of this thread makes me wonder if anyone is still honoring them. Does anyone know?

It seems clear that digp feels strongly about this. But I had thought that this idea had died a well-deserved death many years ago. So if digp can point me to indications that there is some life left in the idea I would appreciate it.

janusz · 4 Jan 2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoldberg

I would be curious to know whether there are any email providers that do honor delivery receipt requests.

Eumx.net has it as an option (always/never/ask every time).

Bluehome has the following options:

Quote:

Request read status notifications? Always Optionally No
Respond to read status notifications? Automatically Manually No
Request delivery status notifications? Always Optionally No

ChinaLamb · 4 Jan 2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janusz

Eumx.net has it as an option (always/never/ask every time).

Bluehome has the following options:

Not that we like to get into the habit of copying the big three, but Hotmail, Yahoo and gmail all do not provide this feature from what I have found on my accounts.

/cl

robert@fm · 5 Jan 2010, 02:44 AM

Because of the privacy/security issues, I several years ago stopped issuing or honouring read receipt requests, and I've also set my filters to bounce any messages which are received via the ReadNotify "service".

This attitude was reinforced by the PM I received on the Evrsoft forums from a Russian scammer (pretending to be from the UK, but his grammar and URLs gave him away) trying to make money off the good name of the Teenage Cancer Trust -- the PM was tagged with a read receipt request, which made me suspect it before I'd even read it.

vivil · 5 Jan 2010, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChinaLamb

digp,
As a result, we use other methods to see if they were received or read.

!!!

create event, give presents, special offers ?

ChinaLamb · 5 Jan 2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vivil

!!!

create event, give presents, special offers ?

Lots of methods can be used:
1. Was it bounced or not?
2. Use images with unique names in each email that tell you specifically which messages were opened or not.
3. Use unique links to something they would want to visit on the internet in each message so that if they click on something you know who clicked on it...
4. Like you said, special offers... (make them want to contact us)

5. Make them pay for it. (you have to provide a GREAT newsletter to command a price tho...)

For the tracking mechanisms to work you need to provide valuable enough information to people to make them want to either look at the pictures or click on the links. Our small company has developed a business support community of about 3-400 people that look forward to our communications.

If your emails are interesting and valuable, you can get people to read it and even get a response by the way you word it.

3 Jan 2010, 08:00 PM	#1
digp Master of the @ Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,326	Delivery receipt Any chance of seeing this implemented? It would be useful for business accounts esp. to show that an email sent had been delivered to the relevant destination. Thanks.

4 Jan 2010, 05:31 AM	#4
n5bb Intergalactic Postmaster Join Date: May 2004 Location: Irving, Texas Posts: 8,929	The "delivery receipt" issue is rather complex, and has been discussed many times before on these forums. One issue is what is considered to be "delivery". Do you mean delivery to the recipient email server at the SMTP stage, forwarding to another email address and acceptance at that second destination, or delivery to the user email client? Any notice returned to the sender other than acceptance at the recipient email server at the SMTP stage is often considered a security issue. For example: Send an email to a Fastmail account which forwards (using redirect) to a Gmail account which has a problem (doesn't exist). Gmail rejects the message, causing Fastmail to send a negative SN (Delivery Service Notification) back to the sender. This DSN reveals the Gmail address to the sender, even though the message was originally sent to a Fastmail address. There really isn't a universal accepted method for getting a positive DSN. There are RFC's for SMTP features and headers which some but not all systems use, but in general you will get a negative DSN if the message can't be delivered to the recipient mailbox, but nothing if the message was delivered. I think that the only way to get these in a controlled manner is using Microsoft Exchange with Outlook for all clients. And the delivery receipt feature can be enabled or disabled by the system administrator, I believe. To reduce spammer knowledge of their success, it's best to not inform the sender that the message was successfully delivered to the user mailbox. You can request for the recipient email client (MUA) to generate a return read receipt by using the Fastmail web interface or some email clients (such as Thunderbird). Many clients (such as Fastmail web mail) ignore such requests. The best way to determine if the recipient has received and read your message is to ask them in the message to respond that they have read and understood the comments. Bill

4 Jan 2010, 06:47 AM	#5
jgoldberg Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 88	Double the traffic and gift to spammers As a former email administrator I have resisted delivery receipts for a number of reasons. But I can sum it up as basically a system, if widely used, that would double email traffic for very little gain. An additional problem is the information it gives to spammers. Spammers currently have to rely on web bugs and other (evadable) tricks to determine which of their ignored messages made it through filters and were successfully delivered. Honoring delivery receipt requests would be handing incredibly valuable information to spammers.

4 Jan 2010, 12:59 PM	#7
jgoldberg Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 88	Who does provide delivery receipts? I would be curious to know whether there are any email providers that do honor delivery receipt requests. My suspicion is that no professional email service does, but that a few corporate MS-Exchange servers do. I would like to see what a postmaster from such a site has to say about it. I remember in the late 90s when the developer of exim asked the user community (a community of postmasters) whether the option to provide these DSNs should be added to exim. Pretty much as one, we didn't even want it as an option. (Not having it as an option made it easier for use to fend off PHBs who were requesting these things.) Everyone who actually managed email systems knew that it was a bad idea. And now in the days of spam as the vast majority of email traffic, it is a far worse one. Nonetheless, seeing feature requests like the beginning of this thread makes me wonder if anyone is still honoring them. Does anyone know? It seems clear that digp feels strongly about this. But I had thought that this idea had died a well-deserved death many years ago. So if digp can point me to indications that there is some life left in the idea I would appreciate it.

4 Jan 2010, 04:45 AM	#3
digp Master of the @ Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,326	you don't use email anymore, chinalamb?

5 Jan 2010, 02:44 AM	#10
robert@fm The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 4,681	Because of the privacy/security issues, I several years ago stopped issuing or honouring read receipt requests, and I've also set my filters to bounce any messages which are received via the ReadNotify "service". This attitude was reinforced by the PM I received on the Evrsoft forums from a Russian scammer (pretending to be from the UK, but his grammar and URLs gave him away) trying to make money off the good name of the Teenage Cancer Trust -- the PM was tagged with a read receipt request, which made me suspect it before I'd even read it.