Effective communication

[elvey]

Statistically speaking, for every SECOND you spend putting on a seat belt, you save a MINUTE of your life. That's an awesome investment, obviously worth making, every time, when considered that way, I think.


(Most people already wear seat belts; I wonder if ads noting a similar statistic would help cut texting while driving rates.).

[hadaso]

As my life was saved by wearing a seat belt on July 16th, 1984, I would have had to spend almost half a year of my life (24x7) putting my seat belt on to make the average.

However I do know a guy whose life was saved by not wearing a seat belt. (He was thrown out of a Jeep driven by some maniac. The Jeep ended up as an unrecognizable pile of metal parts in the valley some 250 meters down from were they were driving).

[Tsunami]

Where do you get this statistic from? Unless you are involved in an accident, it won't make 0 seconds difference to your life expectation weither or not you have been wearing a seatbelt.

In many European countries it is obligatory but then many people ignore this obligation and drive without seatbelt. I doubt you can ever enforce this rule without people violating it, because there are too many cars to control. In that perspective, making people aware of the benefits of wearing a seatbelt, is a wiser decision than trying to legally enforce it.

I generally put on a seatbelt as habit, but there have been occasions when I took a taxi and found the seatbelt quite unhandy, deciding to just not put it on. I know, it may sound stupid, but for a 10 minute taxi ride and when you've been trying unsuccesfully to get the seatbelt right for half a minute... you just stop trying. In cars I often sit in and where the seatbelt is in a good state (you'd be surprised how often they're quite unhandy to plug in) I do always use the seatbelt.

[chrisretusn]

Nothing in the two options for me to select.

I am of the government has no business tell me to wear a seat belt crowd.

Do I wear a seat belt? Yes every time I drive. Why? Because it is required by law. Getting a ticket is a real pain, my license is taken and I have to appear to get it back in the municipality I was ticketed in.

A seat belt has possibly saved my life or at least limited my injuries in an accident several years ago. I was in a worse accident years before that without a seat belt and came out with out a scratch.

I also wear one as a passenger in the front seat and make riders wear one. Why? Because it is required by law. I do not wear a seat belt when riding in public transportation except taxis or jeeps if riding in the front and only if the drive ask me to. These seat belts are for show not function to avoid being ticketed. I do not wear a seat belt if sitting in the back of a vehicle. I don't make my kids wear one either. (Not required by law.)

[elvey]

Interesting discussion. Too few voters so far...

Tsunami: Instead of answering your question, I'll say this: You can derive it yourself, and you'll get a number in the same ballpark. You just need to look up a few basic statistics and do a little math, and you should get pretty close to what a professional statistician would find.
Give it a try and let us know how you do. Start with lifetime odds of dying in a car accident (1 in 84), time to put on a seat belt, times per lifetime you do that, odds of death in an accident with vs without a seat belt...

Chris: You're clearly one of the ~80% of people who,when polled, say they're much better drivers than average driver. The key question is whether you're one of the approximately 45% of that 80% that mis-judge their skill. (It's over 38%, and less than 50%, unless people's self-evaluation skills are worse than random guessing.)

Chris, I see you're in the Philippines. Are you American? Do you drive better than 80% of the US population?

In other words, are you also one of the ~60% of (mostly deluded) Americans who think they drive better than 80% of the population?(source)

[n5bb]

Sorry, but I just don't believe your premise (as stated) that every second spent putting on a seat belt saves a minute of your life. I do believe that wearing both a lap belt and shoulder belt while traveling in a motor vehicle is a very good choice, but that's not at all what you stated. There is a great difference between estimating the frequency of occurrence of certain events and implying a causal connection between events.

• Your premise implies that the act of putting on a seat belt lengthens your life.
  • But this is not true. Those who never ride in a vehicle have no threat to their lifespan from accidents resulting from travel inside a vehicle.
  • Consider a day of your life. You could participate in various activities that day.
    • You could ride wearing a seat belt. There will be a small possibility that you will die as a result.
    • You could ride not wearing a seat belt. There will be a small possibility (higher than in the first case) that you will die as a result.
    • You could die while traveling in a manner which is not affected by the seat belt. For example, you could experience a heart attack which kills you no matter how you crash.
    • You could not ride that day, so that your chance of death due to traveling in a vehicle is zero.
    • You could die due to a non-transportation event which happened only because you were not riding.
  • So I could argue that the act of putting on a seat belt shortens the lifespan of someone who always wears such a belt when traveling. In other words, traveling in a vehicle shortens your lifespan, so if you are one of those enlightened people who always wears the belt then every click of the belt is another chance to travel and have one of the accidents where your life was not saved by the belt.
  • Or if you would be engaging in very risky behavior if you were not traveling in a vehicle, then traveling without wearing a seat belt might be safer than not traveling at all.
• Your premise would also imply that making a thousand short trips (using the belt every time) is a thousand times safer than making one long several hour trip on a controlled access highway. I'm sure that this is not true.
• And I would argue that the length of time it takes to attach the seat belt is probably correlated with a reduction in your remaining lifespan. Excessive use of alcohol or other drugs (or advanced age) should both increase the seconds required to connect the belt, but decrease your chance of safely traveling.
• So I would say that traveling in a motor vehicle without use of both passive and active restraint systems is unsafe and to be discouraged. But it's a logical fallacy to state that the time spent connecting a belt (or the act of attaching a seat belt) is associated with any improvement in lifespan or safety.

Bill

[chrisretusn]

Originally Posted by elvey

Interesting discussion. Too few voters so far...
Chris: You're clearly one of the ~80% of people who,when polled, say they're much better drivers than average driver. The key question is whether you're one of the approximately 45% of that 80% that mis-judge their skill. (It's over 38%, and less than 50%, unless people's self-evaluation skills are worse than random guessing.)

Chris, I see you're in the Philippines. Are you American? Do you drive better than 80% of the US population?

In other words, are you also one of the ~60% of (mostly deluded) Americans who think they drive better than 80% of the population?(source)

You call this a discussion? You have already categorized me and yet you know next to nothing about me. Seat belts have absolutely nothing to do my driving abilities.

[elvey]

Originally Posted by chrisretusn

You call this a discussion? You have already categorized me and yet you know next to nothing about me. Seat belts have absolutely nothing to do my driving abilities.

Well, I think I knew enough to have been right. What if anything was I wrong about?


n5bb, you're making a straw man argument.
I never said that ................................................ for every SECOND you spend putting on a seat belt, you save a MINUTE of your life.
What I said was that statistically speaking, for every SECOND you spend putting on a seat belt, you save a MINUTE of your life. In other words, it's approximately true when averaged over the population. Nothing you said goes against that at all. Of course in each particular case it will be untrue.

I suppose I could use more formal language, (such as "On average, every SECOND spent putting on a seat belt saves a MINUTE of life.") but there's no personal connection made. I think the personalization is appropriate.

[chrisretusn]

Originally Posted by elvey

Well, I think I knew enough to have been right. What if anything was I wrong about?

Your said:

Chris: You're clearly one of the ~80% of people who,when polled, say they're much better drivers than average driver. The key question is whether you're one of the approximately 45% of that 80% that mis-judge their skill. (It's over 38%, and less than 50%, unless people's self-evaluation skills are worse than random guessing.)

That first sentence is sort of like a horoscope in the paper. It will agree with 99% of those who read read it.

It was asked before. Were are you getting these statistics from?

[elvey]

Originally Posted by chrisretusn

Your said:

That first sentence is sort of like a horoscope in the paper. It will agree with 99% of those who read read it.

Umm... that makes no sense. "You're clearly one of the ~80% of people who,when polled, say they're much better drivers than average driver." is in no way something that will agree with 99% of those who read read it. Are you bad at math?

I noticed you sidestepped my question. You quoted it, but then didn't respond. Other than claiming you're in that 80%, I didn't categorize you. I asked questions. And you haven't denied (or confirmed) being in that 80%.

[chrisretusn]

I will entertain your questions. I still say seat belts have absolutely nothing to do with my driving ability.

Chris, I see you're in the Philippines. Are you American? Do you drive better than 80% of the US population?

Yes to the first and yes to the second.

In other words, are you also one of the ~60% of (mostly deluded) Americans who think they drive better than 80% of the population?(source)

No delusions here, I know I drive better that 80% of the population. I've been driving a long time, not just in the United States.

[elvey]

Originally Posted by chrisretusn

I will entertain your questions. I still say seat belts have absolutely nothing to do with my driving ability.

Yes to the first and yes to the second.

No delusions here, I know I drive better that 80% of the population. I've been driving a long time, not just in the United States.

OK, so it's now firmly established that the ONLY categorization or characterization I made of you was correct.

I said "You're clearly one of the ~80% of people who,when polled, say they're much better drivers than average driver."

I never said seat belts have anything to do with your driving ability.

Perhaps this rephrasing packs less punch, but is clearer:

Every SECOND people spend putting on a seat belt, saves, on average, a MINUTE of their lives. In other words, the average return* is about 6000%.

In other words, you have to be more than about 60 TIMES less likely to be in an accident than Joe Average for it not to be worth your time to put on a seat belt. Have you thought about it that way?

*That is, when averaged over the whole driving population. Obviously, for each individual, the return is either 0 or tremendous. (Duh!)

(Yes, it can be annoying to have one on, especially one that doesn't fit, but being injured in a non-lethal accident can be pretty, err, annoying too.)

[William9]

I agree with elvey and Bill. Wearing a seatbelt doesn't lengthen an individual's life, but it significantly reduces the probability that they will be killed in an accident involving a vehicle in which they are driving or riding.

[chrisretusn]

Let be clear, my argument is governments should not be mandating set belt use. They can do what they can to convince folks it is smart to wear one, but to make it a law is beyond what governments should be doing. I have nothing against wearing a seat belt. I wear one because 1) I have to, it's the law; 2) I have been conditioned by many years of seat belt use that it is uncomfortable to drive without one; and 3) I have been convinced from personal experience and propaganda that seat belts put the percentage of walking away from an accident in my favor. So the studies say.

Every SECOND people spend putting on a seat belt, saves, on average, a MINUTE of their lives.

This is just plain silly. Really every second it takes for me to buckle save a minute of my life? Nonsense.

OK, so it's now firmly established that the ONLY categorization or characterization I made of you was correct.

Which is why I did not answer your questions, you have already made up your mind.

Chris: You're clearly one of the ~80% of people who,when polled, say they're much better drivers than average driver. The key question is whether you're one of the approximately 45% of that 80% that mis-judge their skill. (It's over 38%, and less than 50%, unless people's self-evaluation skills are worse than random guessing.)

Of course no matter what I say, you more than likely will put me in the "mis-judge their skill" category. That said, my driving record speaks for it self. Of course you are going to have to take my word on that.

[DrStrabismus]

Originally Posted by chrisretusn

This is just plain silly. Really every second it takes for me to buckle save a minute of my life? Nonsense.

It's nonsense if you remove the words "on average", or wilfully misinterpret their meaning.