recommendations for small business email with own domain

[ioneja]

Originally Posted by lpn

... it is much better to have independent confirmation.

Indeed! You're in the right place to get good feedback on your request -- this forum is still the best place to get unvarnished intelligent opinions about all these services IMO. Knowledgeable and decent folks here, and little to no hype. But in the end, totally agreed, you need to test and verify yourself!

[lpn]

Originally Posted by TenFour

If you need and use MS Office applications anyway it makes sense to at least consider Microsoft 365 for Business. The basic level is only $5 per month per employee and includes email at your own domain with 50GB of storage and 1TB of storage for files, plus online versions of the Office apps making it the cheapest online storage solution around. Love them or hate them, Microsoft's Office apps are the standard in most businesses. This also gives you company-wide calendars, contacts, Teams (for meetings), etc., which are critical to most businesses. Google's Workspace provides similar online productivity apps that are probably the second most used in the business world after Microsoft, but Google only provides 30GB of storage at the $6 per month level. Where Google's business offerings really shine are around email and online collaboration. Sharing in real-time documents, including editing, is excellent with Google's apps. Gmail is by far the best online business-grade email I have used in terms of spam filtering, reliability, and deliverability. No fuss, just works all the time. Nobody blocks Gmail or else they block most of the world. Fastmail is excellent for a smaller provider, and also includes contacts, a calendar, notes, and some file storage. No office apps, and not as much in collaboration stuff. I personally have never had a problem with FM customer service, though it can be a bit slow at times in responding. Nonprofits can get Google Workspace for free and can get Microsoft cheaply. Google and Microsoft offer 24/7 customer service via phone, email, and online. One advantage of the bigger players, like Google, Microsoft, and Fastmail, is that there are enough people using the services to generate robust online forums that can provide assistance and answer a lot of questions that customer service doesn't always do the best with.

Thanks for this. There is no need for Office apps as they already have licenses for the non-cloud versions. Given that it is a small business (2-3 people in one office) and that it is not that dynamic, there is no need for Teams or similar.

Microsoft and to some extend Google seem to have issue with inbound deliverability -- rejecting some incoming emails which would be a big problem for the business if these are inquiries from customers. In this case the cost of missing an important email is much higher than dealing with spam. Not sure if one can disable any inbound filtering with Fastmail.

[ioneja]

Originally Posted by lpn

Not sure if one can disable any inbound filtering with Fastmail.

Fastmail spam protection and filtering features are pretty flexible. Custom rules features are pretty strong, standard blocked senders feature, etc... For spam specifically, for example, you can turn OFF protection entirely, or set it to standard, aggressive, or custom levels. The custom level allows you to set the "spam score" that sends messages to the spam folder. And you can train your bayesian spam filters as well. Your filters allow you granular control too, including filtering based on spam score and other header fields, so you could set up a "probable spam" folder if you want or get into the sticky details, based on custom values, etc.. So overall, I'd say inbound filtering with Fastmail is pretty good in terms of features, and yes, you can turn off its spam engine, risks and all. However, there are services out there that do even more though, for example, there's a package that Luxsci runs with their premium filtering, if I recall, that uses Proofpoint, so that will have some other kinds of granular controls that are beyond what Fastmail does. However, Fastmail does a pretty good job in this area. Back when I used Tuffmail years ago, they had a tremendous amount of granular control, more detailed than what Fastmail does, but again, Fastmail is on the "pretty flexible" end of the spectrum compared to most email providers.

[jarland]

Originally Posted by ioneja

Fastmail spam protection and filtering features are pretty flexible. Custom rules features are pretty strong, standard blocked senders feature, etc... For spam specifically, for example, you can turn OFF protection entirely, or set it to standard, aggressive, or custom levels. The custom level allows you to set the "spam score" that sends messages to the spam folder. And you can train your bayesian spam filters as well. Your filters allow you granular control too, including filtering based on spam score and other header fields, so you could set up a "probable spam" folder if you want or get into the sticky details, based on custom values, etc.. So overall, I'd say inbound filtering with Fastmail is pretty good in terms of features, and yes, you can turn off its spam engine, risks and all. However, there are services out there that do even more though, for example, there's a package that Luxsci runs with their premium filtering, if I recall, that uses Proofpoint, so that will have some other kinds of granular controls that are beyond what Fastmail does. However, Fastmail does a pretty good job in this area. Back when I used Tuffmail years ago, they had a tremendous amount of granular control, more detailed than what Fastmail does, but again, Fastmail is on the "pretty flexible" end of the spectrum compared to most email providers.

Just a heads up: huge problem with Fastmail. I learned this as a customer not long ago doing some work for a company that used them.

If they filter emails into your spam folder, they automatically forward them to feedback loops. Your inbound mail is being sent to a third party without your action or consent.

Most big email providers send to feedback loops when their customer reports the emails as spam. Only Fastmail does it when they themselves filter it.

Now combine that with common behavior for transactional mail providers: they blacklist your email address when they receive an email back from a feedback loop. This can, and in my experience did, result in missing important emails while the sending company won't even notice unless they send a senior staff member to check. Most just say "we sent it and it went through" repeatedly because their support techs don't have that access and get no feedback from their software saying it failed.

This is why I ignore spam complaints from Fastmail, they're not user generated reports. They routinely send me copies of emails my customers sent to theirs where the recipient did not click a button to report spam.

[lpn]

Originally Posted by jarland

Just a heads up: huge problem with Fastmail. I learned this as a customer not long ago doing some work for a company that used them.

If they filter emails into your spam folder, they automatically forward them to feedback loops. Your inbound mail is being sent to a third party without your action or consent.

Most big email providers send to feedback loops when their customer reports the emails as spam. Only Fastmail does it when they themselves filter it.

Now combine that with common behavior for transactional mail providers: they blacklist your email address when they receive an email back from a feedback loop. This can, and in my experience did, result in missing important emails while the sending company won't even notice unless they send a senior staff member to check. Most just say "we sent it and it went through" repeatedly because their support techs don't have that access and get no feedback from their software saying it failed.

This is why I ignore spam complaints from Fastmail, they're not user generated reports. They routinely send me copies of emails my customers sent to theirs where the recipient did not click a button to report spam.

Thanks for sharing this, it is rather concerning.

[TenFour]

Microsoft and to some extend Google seem to have issue with inbound deliverability -- rejecting some incoming emails which would be a big problem for the business if these are inquiries from customers.

In my experience Gmail is very good at sorting out genuine spam and other nasty email, while Microsoft routinely sends a lot of legitimate email into the Junk folder. I suspect this is because Microsoft is so oriented toward enterprise customers that erring on the side of protection is more important to them than missing one or two emails. As you are no doubt aware phishing emails and other malware-laden emails look so good today that only the most diligent and careful readers will be able to avoid opening them and following a link that causes problems. Sometimes the emails are pixel perfect duplicates of routine business correspondence except for the hidden nasty link. I find at work that employees are routinely fooled by legitimate looking emails and click on them.

[ioneja]

Originally Posted by jarland

Just a heads up: huge problem with Fastmail. I learned this as a customer not long ago doing some work for a company that used them.

If they filter emails into your spam folder, they automatically forward them to feedback loops. Your inbound mail is being sent to a third party without your action or consent.

Most big email providers send to feedback loops when their customer reports the emails as spam. Only Fastmail does it when they themselves filter it.

Now combine that with common behavior for transactional mail providers: they blacklist your email address when they receive an email back from a feedback loop. This can, and in my experience did, result in missing important emails while the sending company won't even notice unless they send a senior staff member to check. Most just say "we sent it and it went through" repeatedly because their support techs don't have that access and get no feedback from their software saying it failed.

This is why I ignore spam complaints from Fastmail, they're not user generated reports. They routinely send me copies of emails my customers sent to theirs where the recipient did not click a button to report spam.

Hi jarland, I'm wondering as an independent email provider yourself of a competing service -- MXRoute.com -- if you reached out on behalf of your client or even just on behalf of yourself to Fastmail -- provider to provider that you both are -- to see if they had any response to this issue? If so, very curious to know what they said to you in response, since it sounds like it is important, and as you know they're veterans of over 20 years in the email business and might have some sort of justification to whatever it is they're doing, or maybe this is unexpected behavior on their system, in which case it would be a big concern indeed that needs correction. Please let us know if you found out anything from them. And if you didn't reach out to them, why not? This isn't something I can test easily myself as a regular end user, although I'll ask them to look at this thread, but since I'm not an email provider like you, I don't have the technical capability to show them details of the issue, and I'm sure you know they're good guys and would likely escalate the issue if this is unexpected behavior of their system.

Also, did you test this scenario with Fastmail's "fighting spam" feature where you can disable the "share spam with other companies fighting" spam option, and if that perhaps had any impact on your observations? In any case, I realize your time is limited as a small business entrepreneur, and you don't "owe" them any help or outreach, but with all due respect (and not casting doubt on your good intentions), when you make a statement like that (i.e. "huge problem with Fastmail") as an email provider yourself in a thread like this, it seems like it's reasonable to make a follow-up inquiry with them, especially since you're both in this niche business together, and out of reasonable respect for them as huge contributors to open source software that the Fastmail team is, such as to Cyrus IMAP, and other open source email-related projects, etc. (which you're also a direct or indirect beneficiary of BTW), it seems a professional courtesy to reach out to them as a professional provider yourself and find out more of what might be going on, right? Even if just on behalf of your clients that communicate with Fastmail servers. And if you have reached out to them already, apologies if this sounds like I'm trying to give you a hard time (it's not my intention), or if I'm a Fastmail fanboy (I'm not), but it would be great to know what they said, as this does seem like a concern that they should answer. Cheers!

[jarland]

Originally Posted by ioneja

Hi jarland, I'm wondering as an independent email provider yourself of a competing service -- MXRoute.com -- if you reached out on behalf of your client or even just on behalf of yourself to Fastmail -- provider to provider that you both are -- to see if they had any response to this issue? If so, very curious to know what they said to you in response, since it sounds like it is important, and as you know they're veterans of over 20 years in the email business and might have some sort of justification to whatever it is they're doing, or maybe this is unexpected behavior on their system, in which case it would be a big concern indeed that needs correction. Please let us know if you found out anything from them. And if you didn't reach out to them, why not? This isn't something I can test easily myself as a regular end user, although I'll ask them to look at this thread, but since I'm not an email provider like you, I don't have the technical capability to show them details of the issue, and I'm sure you know they're good guys and would likely escalate the issue if this is unexpected behavior of their system.

Also, did you test this scenario with Fastmail's "fighting spam" feature where you can disable the "share spam with other companies fighting" spam option, and if that perhaps had any impact on your observations? In any case, I realize your time is limited as a small business entrepreneur, and you don't "owe" them any help or outreach, but with all due respect (and not casting doubt on your good intentions), when you make a statement like that (i.e. "huge problem with Fastmail") as an email provider yourself in a thread like this, it seems like it's reasonable to make a follow-up inquiry with them, especially since you're both in this niche business together, and out of reasonable respect for them as huge contributors to open source software that the Fastmail team is, such as to Cyrus IMAP, and other open source email-related projects, etc. (which you're also a direct or indirect beneficiary of BTW), it seems a professional courtesy to reach out to them as a professional provider yourself and find out more of what might be going on, right? Even if just on behalf of your clients that communicate with Fastmail servers. And if you have reached out to them already, apologies if this sounds like I'm trying to give you a hard time (it's not my intention), or if I'm a Fastmail fanboy (I'm not), but it would be great to know what they said, as this does seem like a concern that they should answer. Cheers!

All perfectly reasonable suggestions and hopefully someone else can run with them. In the case of the company I was working with, the company migrated to Office 365 and I no longer have an account to further troubleshoot.

I did reach out to support under the idea of "we're not getting these emails" and they reasonably responded that they didn't see them coming in. Once we got a manager at the other company to check the Sparkpost blacklist we were found there, removed, and then added back immediately as their next email went to the spam folder and sent another feedback loop report.

Plenty of things that could be done to further resolve the specific case but that was the end for us. Should anyone want to take the torch and keep running for it, I'll play the cheerleader role <3

[TenFour]

By the way, it should go without saying that for business email you want to only consider the most stable and solid companies with a long track record. Nothing is more disrupting to a business than having an email outage, possibly due to a company closing up shop or suffering from a debilitating computer hack. For that reason alone I think only a handful of companies qualify to be considered as business ready.

[ioneja]

Originally Posted by jarland

All perfectly reasonable suggestions and hopefully someone else can run with them. In the case of the company I was working with, the company migrated to Office 365 and I no longer have an account to further troubleshoot.

I did reach out to support under the idea of "we're not getting these emails" and they reasonably responded that they didn't see them coming in. Once we got a manager at the other company to check the Sparkpost blacklist we were found there, removed, and then added back immediately as their next email went to the spam folder and sent another feedback loop report.

Plenty of things that could be done to further resolve the specific case but that was the end for us. Should anyone want to take the torch and keep running for it, I'll play the cheerleader role <3

Don't mean to sound overly critical, since forums can amplify unintended meanings, but that's a bit of a cop-out IMO, coming from a directly competing service provider after lobbing a little grenade in Fastmail's direction, then washing your hands like that, "someone else can run with it" in a thread like this. I know plenty of people praise your services, and good on you for that, but this is an example of why I never signed up with you and don't plan to. Good luck, jarland, sincerely.

[jarland]

Originally Posted by ioneja

Don't mean to sound overly critical, since forums can amplify unintended meanings, but that's a bit of a cop-out IMO, coming from a directly competing service provider after lobbing a little grenade in Fastmail's direction, then washing your hands like that, "someone else can run with it" in a thread like this. I know plenty of people praise your services, and good on you for that, but this is an example of why I never signed up with you and don't plan to. Good luck, jarland, sincerely.

"Don't mean to sound overly critical" but you're going to question my integrity, knowledge, and then tell me that's why you don't want to be my customer. It's not a cop-out when you're working with a company run by someone else who makes the decision to move to Office 365. Speaking of which, if I were competitively motivated by everything I say, where we moved it to might be something worth leaving out. I'm not paying Fastmail for an account just to put together a white paper on the subject, and that you'd expect from me to either do that, be silent about what I know, or accept an accusation of lacking integrity calls into question your own.

That's fine if you don't want to be my customer. If that were my motive, a forum with 2 people logged in would be a really bad time investment. It's not valuable to gain a customer who would interpret everything through such a hostile perspective. I'm allowed to be a human who shares experiences. You're allowed to be rude about it in response, but that's on you.

[ioneja]

Originally Posted by jarland

"Don't mean to sound overly critical" but you're going to question my integrity, knowledge, and then tell me that's why you don't want to be my customer. It's not a cop-out when you're working with a company run by someone else who makes the decision to move to Office 365. I'm not paying Fastmail for an account just to put together a white paper on the subject, and that you'd expect from me to either do that, be silent about what I know, or accept an accusation of lacking integrity calls into question your own.

That's fine if you don't want to be my customer. If that were my motive, a forum with 2 people logged in would be a really bad time investment. It's not valuable to gain a customer who would interpret everything through such a hostile perspective. I'm allowed to be a human who shares experiences. You're allowed to be rude about it in response, but that's on you.

When you're an email hosting provider (as you are, of MXRoute.com), one would hope you'd have a different standard than dropping a drive-by on a competitor (in this case Fastmail), and then volunteering to be a cheerleader (I'm quoting you) for other people to follow up on your pejorative statements of said competitor, and then conveniently be offended by someone calling you out on it as you simply "share experiences" as a human. As an email provider in this email forum, where people take you very seriously, if you accuse a fellow email provider of having a "huge problem" (I'm quoting you again), you need to back it up, follow through, and/or take some sort of ownership of it, or withdraw it. Not fling negatives at your competitor, walk away, then get offended at someone pointing that out, and then play the "sharing experiences" card. I think that says more about you. In any case, I do wish you the best, and I'm happy if you have the last word on this so this thread can get back to the OP. And apologies to the OP for pointing out what I think is an unprofessional post by a hosting provider and distracting from the thread.

[jarland]

Originally Posted by ioneja

When you're an email hosting provider (as you are, of MXRoute.com), one would hope you'd have a different standard than dropping a drive-by on a competitor (in this case Fastmail), and then volunteering to be a cheerleader (I'm quoting you) for other people to follow up on your pejorative statements of said competitor, and then conveniently be offended by someone calling you out on it as you simply "share experiences" as a human. As an email provider in this email forum, where people take you very seriously, if you accuse a fellow email provider of having a "huge problem" (I'm quoting you again), you need to back it up, follow through, and/or take some sort of ownership of it, or withdraw it. Not fling negatives at your competitor, walk away, then get offended at someone pointing that out, and then play the "sharing experiences" card. I think that says more about you. In any case, I do wish you the best, and I'm happy if you have the last word on this so this thread can get back to the OP. And apologies to the OP for pointing out what I think is an unprofessional post by a hosting provider and distracting from the thread.

Yeah let's go ahead and call it what it is: You wish that I'd shut up, and you're going to try to spin my lack of compliance as me being corrupt to the core. That you'd accuse me of sharing my experience for evil motives sounds like a guilty conscience to me.

Despite how inconceivable it might be to you that I'd speak as a relatively recent customer that had a bad experience and nothing more, it remains the fact. Accuse me of otherwise if you wish, but you'll have to equally accuse me of having horrible standards for marketing. Two pages into a thread on a forum with 2 people logged in, that's where I'd choose to plant the seed of my evil plan to take down the big mail provider and drive sales to mine? Frankly, the indirect accusation that I'd be that unintelligent from a marketing perspective is actually more hurtful than the direct accusation that I'd be driven by evil intent. The least I could do is make a fake account on Reddit and spread it there, would be much more effective and then you wouldn't have the ammo to attack me on a personal level. All while you sit nicely behind your anonymous account so people can't try to hold you to the same standards. Convenient.

At least I understand why people see someone register an LLC and then instantly assume everything they do is driven by maximizing profit at the expense of everything and everyone else. Far too often that is the experience that people have with companies. But what they don't see is that they're the ones driving it. You want representatives of a company to act like humans, treat you like a human, get angry when they give you canned responses without a second glance, and then you want them to hide behind a PR firm and never actually speak out in public like a human. Then you get a big uncaring faceless corporation a few years later and wonder where they went wrong. Surprise: it was when they removed the humanity from their work and started hiding behind lawyers and PR firms.

As a competitor of mine who clearly has something to gain from painting me as unprofessional, I firmly reject the notion that you are the authority who dictates that. I assume you're a competitor, right? You know a lot about Fastmail, you got defensive really quick and jumped up to attack my credibility. Your entire post history since 2011 is about Fastmail. You can't imagine someone saying anything negative about someone else without financial motive. So by your logic, it's safe to assume that you work for Fastmail and stand to gain from attacking the little guy for being honest. Maybe your time would be better spent fixing the feedback loop system. I've given you what you need to run with it, how awesome would it be if you dropped in and said "That's a really great point, we've fixed that based on your report!" Now that's marketing. A bit late now though, since showing your hand at your relationship would subject you to intensely negative feelings. Perhaps a good note for your next identity though.

Apologies to the OP for having to defend my integrity in a thread that has no business being about my integrity. The hostility I've been met with at EmailDiscussions is noteworthy, but I wish they'd keep it to the thread about my company or message me instead of attacking me every time I dare to open my mouth in their domain. When your goal is to be an unstoppable force in wrecking the pricing models of the industry, it's easy to see why people with something to lose get hostile. I replied to share facts from a recent experience, nothing more. I'm not in this thread to gain a customer. Frankly, I don't need to be.

[ioneja]

Originally Posted by jarland

Yeah let's go ahead and call it what it is: You wish that I'd shut up, and you're going to try to spin my lack of compliance as me being corrupt to the core. That you'd accuse me of sharing my experience for evil motives sounds like a guilty conscience to me.

Despite how inconceivable it might be to you that I'd speak as a relatively recent customer that had a bad experience and nothing more, it remains the fact. Accuse me of otherwise if you wish, but you'll have to equally accuse me of having horrible standards for marketing. Two pages into a thread on a forum with 2 people logged in, that's where I'd choose to plant the seed of my evil plan to take down the big mail provider and drive sales to mine? Frankly, the indirect accusation that I'd be that unintelligent from a marketing perspective is actually more hurtful than the direct accusation that I'd be driven by evil intent. The least I could do is make a fake account on Reddit and spread it there, would be much more effective and then you wouldn't have the ammo to attack me on a personal level. All while you sit nicely behind your anonymous account so people can't try to hold you to the same standards. Convenient.

At least I understand why people see someone register an LLC and then instantly assume everything they do is driven by maximizing profit at the expense of everything and everyone else. Far too often that is the experience that people have with companies. But what they don't see is that they're the ones driving it. You want representatives of a company to act like humans, treat you like a human, get angry when they give you canned responses without a second glance, and then you want them to hide behind a PR firm and never actually speak out in public like a human. Then you get a big uncaring faceless corporation a few years later and wonder where they went wrong. Surprise: it was when they removed the humanity from their work and started hiding behind lawyers and PR firms.

As a competitor of mine who clearly has something to gain from painting me as unprofessional, I firmly reject the notion that you are the authority who dictates that. I assume you're a competitor, right? You know a lot about Fastmail, you got defensive really quick and jumped up to attack my credibility. Your entire post history since 2011 is about Fastmail. You can't imagine someone saying anything negative about someone else without financial motive. So by your logic, it's safe to assume that you work for Fastmail and stand to gain from attacking the little guy for being honest. Maybe your time would be better spent fixing the feedback loop system. I've given you what you need to run with it, how awesome would it be if you dropped in and said "That's a really great point, we've fixed that based on your report!" Now that's marketing. A bit late now though, since showing your hand at your relationship would subject you to intensely negative feelings. Perhaps a good note for your next identity though.

Apologies to the OP for having to defend my integrity in a thread that has no business being about my integrity. The hostility I've been met with at EmailDiscussions is noteworthy, but I wish they'd keep it to the thread about my company or message me instead of attacking me every time I dare to open my mouth in their domain. When your goal is to be an unstoppable force in wrecking the pricing models of the industry, it's easy to see why people with something to lose get hostile. I replied to share facts from a recent experience, nothing more. I'm not in this thread to gain a customer. Frankly, I don't need to be.

Trying to leave you with the last word, but as clarification to your specific comment about me being a competitor, I have no association with Fastmail other than I'm a normal end user customer of Fastmail and several other email providers. I am not an email provider, nor would I want to take on that stress. It's obviously a very tough business. (And BTW I don't expect you to read my other posts in this forum, but it will be obvious by looking at them that I have no connection to Fastmail other than as a customer, including a critical customer during times when Fastmail was having problems.)

Just making sure it's clear based on your comment, "As a competitor of mine who clearly has something to gain from painting me as unprofessional, I firmly reject the notion that you are the authority who dictates that. I assume you're a competitor, right?" Again, you assume incorrectly.

By the way, I don't "wish that you'd shut up," I don't and haven't accused you of "being corrupt to the core," and I have never accused you of being "evil." On the contrary, I wish you'd actually take ownership of your comments in light that you are an email provider and follow through at this point. And I stand by calling your posts unprofessional in this thread, and I consider your comments about Fastmail to be a drive-by attack -- "huge problem with Fastmail" as you said -- and that's a pretty strong thing to say as you are a trusted email service provider in this email forum, without taking ownership and then walking away, and I felt it was fair to call you out on it, as you are an email representative in this forum and your words are taken seriously by a lot of people. You are an expert-level email professional -- not a normal end user here, so what you say has ramifications beyond what a typical user might share about his/her opinion. You are obviously entitled to feel otherwise.

I can see you've taken extreme personal offense at what I've called you out on and interpreted it very strongly, and I'm saddened that this exchange took such a profoundly negative turn. I do hope we can leave it now, but again, I'm trying to give you the last word and you're leaping to things I didn't say (please review my comments to confirm I didn't call you evil, for example). I think beyond me not wanting to be a customer of yours (which I'm entitled to think and say and yes, it can be considered rude to say it), you seemed to have taken that very strongly, and I do regret writing that sentence at this point since it was unnecessary to make my other points that I consider very legitimate. It's clear we're not on the same page and never will be, but I think we're shooting right past each other right now. Again, wishing you the best, and hope the dust can settle on this, but please do take the last word.

[jarland]

Truth is you can't (won't, and why should you) prove you're not a competitor trying to steal my business any more than I can prove that I'm an honest guy who just felt like sharing useful information that popped up in my head as I read the thread on the toilet. It's just a little hurtful that I'd be accused of a thought crime for being honest.

I stand by my statement: Someone with an active account there has my blessing and I'll be your cheerleader for getting the problem I stated resolved. I don't like getting my client's emails sent to me when neither party meant for them to be. But we're not all part of some club where I have a back door contact, an active account holder needs to be the one to take that to them and that isn't me. I look forward to retracting my words should the problem be treated by an active customer with nearly as much importance as the indictment of the person that brought it to light.