Is Google/Gmail all that bad ?

[Eireannach]

I constantly come across a great deal of anti-google sentiment as I browse the web - mostly centred around tracking etc.

Based on this I have spent months trying various email services ( paid or otherwise) and pretty well without exception have found something in each one that I did not like. At this point I am considering simply returning to gmail as my main email service

I admit that it can be a bit creepy to see ads coming up based on something one has been browsing previously.Agreed also the service is not really free i.e. the quid pro quo is you get the service /google gets the ability to target ads.

For normal personal use is there anything really wrong with google/gmail ?

[David]

Originally Posted by Eireannach

For normal personal use is there anything really wrong with google/gmail ?

I don't know Eireannach: if you were to send snail mail (to family or friends) would you mind if the post office opened and read it, before delivering it to its final destination? If your answer is yes, the answer to the question you ask is also yes. imho.

[EricG]

I think ad-bots scanning your mail is no more objectionable than spam-bots doing it. Having bored employees or government spooks read your mail is a completely different issue.

I find some of the targeted ads creepy, like those after googling some medical term I see on a web page. There is a whole section in google settings were you can opt in or out of ad categories. They do explain privacy policies, follow the link near Ads Settings.

The anti-Google people are either political or paranoid. They used to be anti-Microsoft, but rarely anti-Apple.

[jl66]

Originally Posted by EricG

The anti-Google people are either political or paranoid. They used to be anti-Microsoft, but rarely anti-Apple.

You are totally wrong, and saying these things maybe you were out of this world these last years, because it's clear what goggle does with our information. There isn't a "free" google email, they gain even more money scanning our emails.

[ioneja]

Originally Posted by EricG

I think ad-bots scanning your mail is no more objectionable than spam-bots doing it. Having bored employees or government spooks read your mail is a completely different issue.

I find some of the targeted ads creepy, like those after googling some medical term I see on a web page. There is a whole section in google settings were you can opt in or out of ad categories. They do explain privacy policies, follow the link near Ads Settings.

The anti-Google people are either political or paranoid. They used to be anti-Microsoft, but rarely anti-Apple.

Hi Eric,

I respectfully and totally disagree about your analysis. What you have stated, is, unfortunately, what many people think though, and it is deeply mistaken about how Google operates as a business. The ad-bots scanning your email is NOT just about ad-bots scanning your email so it can give you relevant ads... Your equivalence of this to spam-bots doing it is totally incorrect, and totally misses what is going on in the background.

What Google is doing isn't just scanning your email, they are scanning your email AND building an advanced profile of you, which they use to sell advertisements. Now on the surface you may think it is the same... nothing to think about and certainly nothing to be "paranoid" about... again, that's missing the point, no matter how many people may not object to this. But Google also couples all this profile data with other profile data they acquire from all your other Google-related activities... and also aggregates all that with tracking data from AdSense, IP data and even GPS data from your Android-based phone... in other words... Google is actually building a *massive* personal psychological profile of YOU, and relates that with everyone you have contact with. This profile is so advanced we have only seen the tip of the iceberg with the targeted ads you think are so harmless. Sure, it's for better and better ads (at least right now), which is what people will see... but it's far more elaborate than that.

Do you want a psychological record of so much detail about your life -- your browsing patterns, search terms, locations (including where you go, where you drive, how you get there), purchase habits, YouTube habits, email content, contact lists, calendar items, etc., etc., etc. all in one place? There are no meaningful walls between this data at google... go re-read the privacy policies of the google-owned services. It's effectively one aggregated pool of data at this point.

Think about it.

The bottom line is that if you think this is some passive ad-bot just serving up simple ads you can sort of filter or control, you are seriously mistaken. The Google ecosystem is built around achieving ultra-specific profiles of its users. Now, that kind of data is the data that university research labs studying advanced human psychology could only dream about getting. Google potentially knows more about some people than their own therapists might know. I'm not kidding about the potential of this.

Then you bring up the issue of "employees or government spooks" reading your email... now just think of them having all that data in your profile to add to their reading list. Creepy is not the word. Inadvertent or other access to such vast data about one person or a group or people is far beyond what a simple "ad bot" is doing.

Now, having said all that, I do have a Google account, which I use for specific limited purposes. I'm not insane or paranoid. I know what's going on, so I choose what data goes through it, so I can gain the conveniences of some of the services as needed. I'm comfortable with how I use it. And I have also used their paid Google Apps accounts, which have numerous granular administrative controls that can greatly limit what Google does, not to mention DIFFERENT privacy policy regulations that have to withstand enterprise contract scrutiny. But we're not talking about PAID Google services here... we're talking about FREE Google services... which are absolutely, most assuredly NOT FREE. Google "free" accounts are making Google a ton of money. You are NOT paying with your money, but with your private, personal information.

Now if everyone actually knew that, I'm sure many people would STILL use GMail, etc... "free" has become so attractive and people don't much care these days, sadly. Very little willpower exists to make changes on a big scale. But fortunately, there are lots of paid services out there that are answering the call for alternatives to this model, for people who care.

Anyway, that is precisely why I use paid services for any important email. I want my email service provider to earn money from me paying them, not from them building and selling my personal profile.

Your last comment "The anti-Google people are either political or paranoid. They used to be anti-Microsoft, but rarely anti-Apple" is also grossly missing the point.

Microsoft never amassed such in-depth personal usage data on so many people, even at their worst with their free services. But I'm sure that division of Microsoft tries its best to compete with Google. The good thing about Microsoft is that one of their most profitable arms is enterprise-grade services and applications, which is a totally different model. Their enterprise/business class Office 365 services, for example, running on Exchange and Sharepoint, are utterly different than their consumer-oriented cloud services.

Additionally, as far as Apple goes, their model is also different. Apple makes their money via their ecosystem not based on selling your profile to advertisers, but by selling you their hardware and cut of the content you buy. Not only is Apple vastly behind in their ability to aggregate advanced profiles like Google (or even Microsoft for that matter), their whole business model is different and it is not central to their model. Not to mention I think they'd be less than competent doing it.

That doesn't make Apple "better" -- just a different model. Just take that into consideration over what "free" services you use. Nothing is really free.

Anyway, in all cases, a paid email business model (after all, this is an email forum, so I'll bring it back to email!), is vastly different than any of these so-called "free" services. There isn't anything "political" or "paranoid" about that. If you choose to use Google, for example, for your personal exchanges (and everything else), just go into it with eyes wide open.

My two bits only.

[kaptitsky]

Gmail is, as all Google products that survive are, an excellent product. It gives very high functionality, is continuously improved, has both basic and and advanced features, and works extremely well across platforms.

Gmail is very good.

Is Gmail also all that bad?

The real question people are asking here is not if Gmail is bad -- it isn't -- but if Google is bad.

Google believes, really believes in their DNA, that the more they know about you, about you needs, your preferences and your desires, the more they can help you navigate the connected world.

They use what they know about you to shape the search results they show you, to make better suggestions in Maps, to prioritize incoming mail and so on. They do, yes, even use what they know to try and show you advertisements that will be more relevant and useful to you.

They aren't wrong about being able to be more useful to you the more that they know about you. That's one of the reasons their products are so damn good, because they really try to optomize the user experience.

The question, though, is if you can trust any company that knows so much about you.

This was an easy question when it was the shopkeeper at the general store that knew about you. It was just the way it worked.

Google really cares about security. AOL and Yahoo have had data breaches where user data was exposed. I haven't heard that happening at Google.

And Google promises to do good with your data.

In the end, though, it's a matter of trust.

Google can help you more the more they know about you. They work very hard to be responsible with that data, letting you at it, letting you opt out, all that important stuff.

And anything you do on the internet is going to leave traces, let people track, identify and build profiles on you. Being invisible on the net means working very hard, giving up lots of bits that make access easier, and even then not being sure that you aren't being seen.

Google delivers great products, easy to use and very effective. If you want to use them, Google will start to know things about you. They will use those things to make your experience with their products better (And yes, that means even make the advertising that pays for those products better.)

I like the products very much. They are great. I am willing to let Google know something about me. I try to be smart about what I share -- I don't stay always logged in, for example -- but I do understand the price of using Google products.

Is Google all that bad? Is Google all that good?

For me, the Google good very much outweighs the bad.

Your choice may vary.

[David]

Originally Posted by kaptitsky

Google believes, really believes in their DNA, that the more they know about you, about you needs, your preferences and your desires, the more they can help you navigate the connected world.

Thanks kaptitsky for your answer - that is for sure

[Eireannach]

Originally Posted by kaptitsky

In the end, though, it's a matter of trust.

Google can help you more the more they know about you. They work very hard to be responsible with that data, letting you at it, letting you opt out, all that important stuff.

Interesting discussion, thanks to ionega and kaptitsky for considered replies

I think perhaps kaptitsky in the quote above captures the essence of the question. Should we fear Google just because they amass a profile or is it only when/if they use the information amassed in an unacceptable way that we should fear them ( although Pandora's box comes to mind)? I too have generally found their privacy information to be up-front and the opt-outs ( including switching off web-history) to be fairly easily accessible.

Sure if I could find a drop-in replacement for Gmail without the ads/tracking (I have no problem paying if necessary / Fastmail comes close ) then I would jump at it but as I noted in the opening post I have not ( so far !) found that drop-in replacement

[jl66]

Yes, you can pay to google and avoid adds. I read something about it in this forum before.

[somdcomputerguy]

Originally Posted by EricG

I think ad-bots scanning your mail is no more objectionable than spam-bots doing it.

I am fairly computer literate but I am not a computer professional in any area. So this is just my 2 cents: 'Spam-bots' scan thru an email looking for particular data, ie., 'spammer stuff'. 'Ad-bots' scan thru an email and record who it's from (which includes IP address and other geographic location data, and more I'm sure, such as times and dates..), who it's to, the subject, and keywords in the email body. Such as product names, and probably phrases that can relate to various products. All of this information can (and most probably is) put on a graph or something, that will show what emails in any particular area or groups are about, which most probably leads to more detailed analysis and other 'generalizations'.

Since I'm rich and have 2 more cents , this is a big difference to me, and quite objectionable..

- Bruce

[adamlau]

Originally Posted by EricG

The anti-Google people are either political or paranoid. They used to be anti-Microsoft, but rarely anti-Apple.

I am in IT and am neither political, nor paranoid (else I would not be posting this reply on a public forum). I am anti-Google, anti-MS and anti-Apple for the sole reason of privacy protection. I am generally with ioneja on this one with the exception that it is my view that both MS and Apple profile their users just as aggressively as Google. Though I have and will continue to use certain services that they offer (e.g. Google Webmaster Tools, Bing Places for Business). But Gmail? Never.

[Eireannach]

@adamlau,
Would you mind saying which provider you use ?
Fastmail is not an option for me as , although it is otherwise very good, I am EU based and need the providers servers to be in EEA or for the provider to formally subscribe to EU data protection rules.

[FredOnline]

Originally Posted by EricG

The anti-Google people are either political or paranoid.

Or is it just no longer fashionable - but do you remember waiting for a Gmail invite? - to have a Gmail address.

Just like some won't use their AOL account because it's no longer de rigueur.

I've tried - seriously tried - to move from Gmail, I either still have or have tried paid accounts from Fastmail, Runbox, EuMX, PolarisMail, LuxSci, MXroute, etc.

But I keep coming back to Gmail (Google Apps grandfathered account) for my day to day needs - it does exactly what I want it to do.

As for privacy?

Some people - not pointing at any posters here - need a reality check as to their perceived importance in the world.

[janusz]

Originally Posted by FredOnline

Some people - not pointing at any posters here - need a reality check as to their perceived importance in the world.

Hear, hear !

[ioneja]

Originally Posted by FredOnline

As for privacy?

Some people - not pointing at any posters here - need a reality check as to their perceived importance in the world.

Not assuming you are directing that at someone like me, your average local email enthusiast and fan of this forum, but I don't see how "perceived importance" in this discussion has anything to do with the broad issue of privacy.

Re: this email discussion, "privacy" is mainly a personal value that some people care about at different levels in their lives -- it's not for me or anyone to judge someone's personal take on such a value either way. So nothing against someone who cares about this more or less than someone else, unless one person is trying to force their values on someone else.

And I don't have a problem with the existence of services like Google. Like I mentioned, I use some of their services in a limited way, and totally agree on the brilliance of many of their innovations. I also mentioned people should use such services with "eyes wide open" with a full understanding of what is going on.

The really slippery slope of privacy comes with abuse of power IMO -- from the corporate side to the government side and any other permutation of abuse of power. But that's a far larger philosophical discussion, and it gets political pretty quickly, so I'll avoid deep discussion out of respect for forum rules.

I'll simply say that surrendering so much private information to one service bugs me *personally* -- if someone else chooses to do that, go for it. My larger concern is that such information has been, is being, and will be used to gain advantage (in many different forms) or even used against people. That's the nature of how society works and always has worked. The very potential of that abuse on such a broad scale, with such broad data profiles, should be concerning to anyone who values liberty and freedom of expression. Again, this gets political quickly, so I'll stop there.

Let's just accept reality... fact is, that when you make that much information about yourself available to an aggregated database that never really goes away, you are giving quite a bit of yourself away, whether or not you think you are "important." I choose to limit that information, and I am willing to pay third-party services that don't aggregate my data that way. In effect, I put a price on my data... hey, those companies like Google put a price on my data, so why don't I?

If Google thinks my personal profile right now is worth about $50 per year (the cost of the paid version of Google Apps vs free GMail for this example), then honestly, that's not that much money to spend per year on my personal data being protected a bit more than all that free data I'd be giving away. My personal data is definitely worth more than 14 cents per day. And I definitely don't think I'm "important."

Again, my two bits only. And I am trying to be very respectful of forum rules. I love getting into the philosophical and political side, but this has always been a great forum and I appreciate people's self-moderation. I'll do the same.